Daytrading: Should I consider other software than NinjaTrader?

[schweiz]

I know I'm late to this thread but I just wanted to point out the rationale for NinjaTrader taking years upon years to release a new version.

Simply it is, anyone developing code for their platform (Indicators, Strategies) would have a hissy fit if they had to recode their stuff every year. This way they only need to recode every 5 years or however long it takes NT to release a new version.

Why they don't bother to keep things compatible is beyond me though - I can't think of any real reason beyond laziness. Most other companies are at pains to support previous versions.

Imagine for example if Java just decided that all code created by previous versions wouldn't be supported by the new version. It's unthinkable.

Or if Microsoft said ok, no software created before windows 10 will work on windows 10.

They can make a new paradigm sure, but well at the very least if they're not going to support older indicator code they should at least create an automatic translator tool so that code can be ported with minimal effort.

The only real problem with Ninjatrader is for me the fact that you have to reprogram everything if you go from NT7 to NT8. In 1 word: HORRIBLE!

I changed from Tradestation (after about 20 years) to NT7. NT7 was a huge improvement for me as I still used TS2000i before. The fact that TS2000i worked so long proves that it is not necessary to change the way indicators are coded. It only causes problems and it can cost them customers that might leave because they are not interested in changing their code all the time.
I tried to switch from NT7 to NT8 but it was quickly clear that there were problems that are for me too difficult to overcome. I am not programmer, I am a trader. And I will never ask a programmer to adapt my source code to the new NT8 format. Might as well give everything away for free or publish it on ET.

 

[Laissez Faire]

And I will never ask a programmer to adapt my source code to the new NT8 format. Might as well give everything away for free or publish it on ET.

How did you make those indicators or strategies for NT7 in the first place, then?

 

[ycomp]

How did you make those indicators or strategies for NT7 in the first place, then?

sure it is possible to write indicators without being a programmer, just I'd imagine more frustrating.. harder though with Ninja than almost any other platform I can think of (except Sierra - you might really need to be a programmer for that)

 

[schweiz]

How did you make those indicators or strategies for NT7 in the first place, then?

1. First developed in Excel.
2. Next programmed in Easy Language for Tradestation (is possible without knowledge of programming)
3. Switched to Ninjatrader:

• First copy an existing free indicator.
• Analyze the structure.
• Adapt this source little by little to go to the formulas I wanted to use.
• Trial and error took weeks before everything was working. Compiler gave constant errors that I had to solve one by one.
  
• A horror scenario, but the only safe way for me.
• Comparing the final result with the values produced by Excel to see if the programming was correct.
• Comparing the final result with the values produced by Tradestation to see if the programming was correct.

The problem was not the part with formulas/calculations that were built by me. The problems were words that I had no clue about what they meant and what they are used for like:

• Declarations
• Namespace
• Public class
• Variables
• Private
• Protected override void
• Initialize
• Onstartup
• Onbarupdate
• etc...

Believe me if you have no clue about programming it is a hell of a job.

 

[ycomp]

I am a programmer and it still took me several hours to convert a (non trivial) indicator to NT8 from NT7. It was someone else's source code and I hadn't programmed anything for NT8 before and NT7 I hadn't coded in 5 years I guess. Actually it was 2 indicators but the second was short and quick, only problem it didn't work and I was too tired to try to debug it. The first indicator, although longer and taking the bulk of my time to port actually worked once I was finished.

 

[ycomp]

1. Protected override void

Believe me if you have no clue about programming it is a hell of a job.

haha lol, why they need such stuff in an indicator is beyond me. They should have chosen some scripting language if they didn't want to create their own language. But like people say, NinjaTrader's addon support is really intended for 3rd party developers to sell their wares so if your business is coding indicators, words like these are not a problem.

 

[Laissez Faire]

1. First developed in Excel.
2. Next programmed in Easy Language for Tradestation (is possible without knowledge of programming)
3. Switched to Ninjatrader:

• First copy an existing free indicator.
• Analyze the structure.
• Adapt this source little by little to go to the formulas I wanted to use.
• Trial and error took weeks before everything was working. Compiler gave constant errors that I had to solve one by one.
  
• A horror scenario, but the only safe way for me.
• Comparing the final result with the values produced by Excel to see if the programming was correct.
• Comparing the final result with the values produced by Tradestation to see if the programming was correct.

The problem was not the part with formulas/calculations that were built by me. The problems were words that I had no clue about what they meant and what they are used for like:

• Declarations
• Namespace
• Public class
• Variables
• Private
• Protected override void
• Initialize
• Onstartup
• Onbarupdate
• etc...

Believe me if you have no clue about programming it is a hell of a job.

Interesting, Schweiz. I understand your reluctancy with upgrading. I did move on to NT8 myself and have been slightly disappointed at this point. Haven't noticed any significant performance improvements. In fact, at first, they had trouble with a lagging crosshair.

Doesn't seem like an improvement to me. But, it seems like they finally managed to get this up to par on the last update. I know some people have suffered performance issues as well, although they often seem to be related to 3rd party indicators.

Are these proprietary indicators of yours very unique? Are you convinced some programmer could just steal it? Not sure if it's enough for you, but there are guys signing NDAs before taking on a job.

I have had some guys program proprietary stuff for me. Not in Ninja, but other stuff. These guys seem to have zero interest in programming and zero knowledge of financial markets. Additionally, the final product needs discretion in how to use it (and I'm not disclosing that) and it's fairly complex with many variables, so I haven't had any worries.

But, at this point, I would probably be very cautious if I were to say have another company make any upgrades since I'd have to explain what I do in more detail once again. One can always be cryptic and throw out false leads of course.

 

[ycomp]

Interesting, Schweiz. I understand your reluctancy with upgrading. I did move on to NT8 myself and have been slightly disappointed at this point. Haven't noticed any significant performance improvements. In fact, at first, they had trouble with a lagging crosshair.

Doesn't seem like an improvement to me. But, it seems like they finally managed to get this up to par on the last update. I know some people have suffered performance issues as well, although they often seem to be related to 3rd party indicators.

Are these proprietary indicators of yours very unique? Are you convinced some programmer could just steal it? Not sure if it's enough for you, but there are guys signing NDAs before taking on a job.

I have had some guys program proprietary stuff for me. Not in Ninja, but other stuff. These guys seem to have zero interest in programming and zero knowledge of financial markets. Additionally, the final product needs discretion in how to use it (and I'm not disclosing that) and it's fairly complex with many variables, so I haven't had any worries.

But, at this point, I would probably be very cautious if I were to say have another company make any upgrades since I'd have to explain what I do in more detail once again. One can always be cryptic and throw out false leads of course.

there are some improvements to be sure.. like not have to use the default instrument list from a chart and being able to type in any window the name of an instrument.

as far as multithreaded goes, I believe them but it is still lacking.. like why should loading data freeze up all your windows until data is loaded? I'm not sure if it only happens with certain data connections or not - might just be the FXCM feed doing this.

But all in all I'd say it's an improvement. But, if you have everything all nicely configured in NT7 with all the indicators you need (and some of them aren't on NT8).. there's not really an overwhelming reason to upgrade. It's like Metatrader in the Forex world.. everyone that uses Metatrader uses MT4 because MT5 is not compatible. But I think have begun the slow process of retiring MT4.

It's not like other platforms don't have their share of problems either.. Sierra Chart for example draws graphics that look like they were drawn on an 80s PC.

But the NT indicator incompatiblity, I believe that happens with every major release? NT 6.5 indicators weren't really compatible with NT7 either? or was it just some of them?

 

[schweiz]

Interesting, Schweiz. I understand your reluctancy with upgrading. I did move on to NT8 myself and have been slightly disappointed at this point. Haven't noticed any significant performance improvements. In fact, at first, they had trouble with a lagging crosshair.

Doesn't seem like an improvement to me. But, it seems like they finally managed to get this up to par on the last update. I know some people have suffered performance issues as well, although they often seem to be related to 3rd party indicators.

I left Tradestation 2000i because it was a "1 thread" program so the calculations and the rest blocked or froze when the PC could not follow the refreshes (PC always running at 100%). I had to find a multi thread program. And therefore I switched to NT7. For me an excellent product although there is still room for improvement.
I also never change immediately when there is an upgrade. An upgrade that many times at start is not stable and has bugs is too expensive and very stressful if you need that program to make money for a living.

Are these proprietary indicators of yours very unique? Are you convinced some programmer could just steal it? Not sure if it's enough for you, but there are guys signing NDAs before taking on a job.

I have had some guys program proprietary stuff for me. Not in Ninja, but other stuff. These guys seem to have zero interest in programming and zero knowledge of financial markets. Additionally, the final product needs discretion in how to use it (and I'm not disclosing that) and it's fairly complex with many variables, so I haven't had any worries.

But, at this point, I would probably be very cautious if I were to say have another company make any upgrades since I'd have to explain what I do in more detail once again. One can always be cryptic and throw out false leads of course.

I used external help but was very careful. Never gave any source code or even an explanation of what I wanted to program. Just the error code of the compiler and the question: what can be the problem?

 

[schweiz]

But, if you have everything all nicely configured in NT7 with all the indicators you need (and some of them aren't on NT8).. there's not really an overwhelming reason to upgrade.

Exactly. That's why I will stay with NT7 till it dies. I will see what to do when NT7 dies. No use to worry about a problem until it occurs. Besides that my son will finish in 2 months a university degree in computer science, that might fix my future problem.