Day trading difficulties

Quote from jones247:

Nodoji,

thanks for taking the time to painstakingly provide the details on the fundamentals of price action trading... Please note that your efforts are highly appreciated by many.

Since you've stated that you probably won't write the book on daytrading, then perhaps you'll consider opening a trading room (with a discount to fledgling ET traders :))

thanks again for your time...

Btw, which books would you recommed for becoming efficient with setups and trade management (i.e. Reading Price Charts Bar by Bar - Al Brooks; Trading in The Zone - Mark Douglas; Micro-Trend Trading for Daily Income - Thomas Carr; etc.)?

thanks,

Walter

Hi Walter,

I believe Kingjelly recently wrote my book:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178741&perpage=10&pagenumber=1901

I really found Al Brooks and Mark Douglas to be the most useful books for me. I hadn't looked at Brooks book since reading most of it tediously over a 6-month period starting in August 2009, but I picked it up just last week and it appears that once you approach 10,000 hours of screen time, the book magically translates itself into plain English! :p

I was part of a Skype group for many months and discovered that every trader has to find their own path. Finding time frame, methodology and instrument(s) to trade that fit your comfort level is what will make or break you as a trader. You can read about high probability setups till you can draw them in your sleep, you can see them forming in real time, you can call them by name and you can know exactly what you're supposed to do when you see these setups. You can be in a chat room with me, and as a setup forms in real time I can tell you where to place an order, where to place a protective stop and where to target a minimum profit. But if you're not comfortable with any part of the process, you will not have positive results.

I had the privilege of spending day after day with a professional trader with decades of experience, and I couldn't bring myself to trade like he did and for the longest time he thought I was nuts for trading the way I did. I now fully understand how he trades and frequently trade that way, and he told me recently that since trading CL he decided I'm not nuts after all, the instrument I trade is nuts :D

One of my Skypemates relied heavily on trend lines. I remember one day we were watching CL (oil) sell off hard and in the middle a huge red bar in progress he said, "Looks like a good place to buy right here," and I thought he'd completely lost his mind, and price stopped cold about .03 from the price where he made his announcement and began running back up. Turns out he had a trend line drawn and price bounced right off the trend line like it was a trampoline. Although I now draw trend lines all day and trade off them, at that time it was simply not in my comfort zone to trade like that.

Another of my Skypemates was learning to trade and I was working with him on a particular price action trigger that had a very high rate of success. However, the method of trading required the ability to allow price to wiggle back and forth from green to red before the reward of a full profit target was attained. He had great difficulty holding trades to target because it just wasn't in his comfort zone to allow an unrealized gain reverse to an unrealized loss, even though more often than not the price went to full target or better, and average losses were significantly less than average profits.

You can learn trade setups and how to trade them anywhere, in books, on-line for free, on-line for a fee, and in trading rooms for free or for a fee. But none of that guarantees success.

Success comes from finding one or two setups you're really comfortable with, learning to trade them without hesitation, and following your rules for managing the trades.

Then as you accrue more screen time and experience, you'll begin to recognize additional types of setups and gradually add them to your repertoire.

I now trade about six different strategies whereas a year ago I traded maybe two.
 
Quote from NoDoji:

Trend lines are trend lines in your time frame. If you're trading off that 5-min chart, you're looking to capture profits from price swings in that time frame. So draw your trend lines across 5-min pivot levels.

When these trend lines hold on pullbacks, they won't always be perfect to the exact tick/pip because traders may be vying for fills at the value level and so price may not make it all the way to the trend line (strong trend). Price may dip through the trend line slightly as well, attracting the opposite camp and trapping them if price holds up close to the trend line (weaker trend). Entering trades with limit orders at or near trend lines is definitely more speculative, but the advantage is tight stops.

The biggest failure on the attached chart is all the lines. First, you need to ditch everything except the price bars and maybe a 20-period EMA, which serves as a strong mobile support/resistance level during trends.

Then begin at the left edge of that chart, cover up everything else and describe what you know as you reveal each price bar.

Without seeing what preceded the left edge of this chart, there's not much revealed until the failed breakout during the 18:35 bar. Buyers step back in at the bottom of the range, but they fail to take control as shown by selling off lower highs. You can position yourself long on any of the visits to support, but have a set of stop and reverse orders just below that support level because the failed breakout attracted a lot of breakout longs who are now potentially trapped and the bears are licking their chops, waiting for a break of the range low to sell.

Signals that an intraday trending move is about to occur: Failed upside breakout, lower highs, strong support level tested half a dozen times. This is a descending triangle formation and strong moves come out of this formation. If support holds and price move back up through the heavy resistance around 1.45755, an upside trending move is likely. If price breaks the triangle support floor, a downside trending move is likely.

The nice thing about price action trading is that you don't have to predict which way price will go. Be prepared to trade either way and take advantage of the move.

I personally would be positioned long near support, with a double stop just below support. When price broke through a previous bar's high in the descending triangle (break of the 19:15 bar high during the 19:20 bar), I'd expect follow through to break previous resistance and then test the high of the failed breakout.

When price began selling off after hitting a lower high during the 19:25 bar (failed triangle breakout), I would move my stop loss to break even and leave my sell stop in place for the downside breakout.

By listening to what price is saying, I protect myself against any large loss, and take advantage of a solid profit by joining whichever side exerts solid control.

Once price is trending down, there is no reason to even consider a long position until a higher low is followed by a break of a previous resistance level (higher low/higher high) OR price bases around a key support level from a larger time frame.

At the close of the 20:55 bar, we see support established at a higher low and previous resistance (20:40 bar high) broken. Price is now likely to retrace 50% of the range from that failed breakout high through the new low, so it should push to around 1.4557 before indecision between the bulls and bears sets in.

Where do you buy in this potential intraday trend reversal setup?

Draw a trend line across the lows of the 20:30 and the 20:50 bar and place a limit to buy a pullback to that price zone, which should get lifted during the 21:20-21:25 bars. Alternatively you can place a buy stop just above the high of each closed pullback bar until a long position is triggered. If you entered using a limit order, you can place a tight stop, because you want the trend line to hold, not fail. Better to take a small loss and try again, than to allow for a larger loss when trading counter to the previous price move down.

If you entered using a buy stop, place your stop loss below the low of the pivot that took you into the trade, or below the entry bar itself if price action isn't too volatile.

So far I've described two setups to take advantage of intraday trending moves. If this was a daily chart, you would likely swing trade it the same way.


The best way of proving this entire theory is to make live calls in advance in a journal .Chart looks good in hindsight, processing of chart information is easier in hindsight.So make a thousand live calls under the stress of live bucks at risk.This will also prove the 10 % psychology /90 % system correct.

:D

Call the thread price action live calls.

I am looking forward to seeing it.
:D
 
Quote from wrbtrader:



The market does not cause this...it's already there before you take that trade.

Identify the psychological or discipline problem first (no vague generalities). Resolve it and then trade. Unfortunately, most will trade first and then tweak their method in hopes that their psychological and discipline problems will magically go away.

Mark

In this attached article are listed most of my discipline problems

1)time frame
2)enviromental distractions
3)fatigue and overtrading
4)overconfidence
5)unwilling to accept losses
6)Excessive leverage
7)type of trading :day trading
8)patience loss of(result of quick day trading)
9)trading plan system for new style of trading
10)personaility traits
11) mental overload with too many things

Some of these discipline problems are endemic to day trading, if day-trading is eliminated most of the disciple problems are reduced.

The other problems can be eliminated by having a system eliminating all the discipline problems.
 

Attachments

Quote from oilfxpro:

In this attached article are listed most of my discipline problems

1)time frame
2)enviromental distractions
3)fatigue and overtrading
4)overconfidence
5)unwilling to accept losses
6)Excessive leverage
7)type of trading :day trading
8)patience loss of(result of quick day trading)
9)trading plan system for new style of trading
10)personaility traits
11) mental overload with too many things

Some of these discipline problems are endemic to day trading, if day-trading is eliminated most of the disciple problems are reduced.

The other problems can be eliminated by having a system eliminating all the discipline problems.

Hi oilfxpro,

You continue answering your own questions that you're currently not suitable for manual day trading (also known as discretionary day trading).

Simply, you know what's profitable for you (automation day trading and automation swing trading). Yet, you remain fixated on discretionary day trading that doesn't work for you. It seems logical to me to spend time & energy on something that works instead of on something that so far has not work considering you're in a very unique situation via having other options. In comparison, most losing discretionary day traders do not have a profitable automation day trading or automation swing trading system like you do.

Further, the #2, #3, #5 and #10 from your above list are very problematic. There such a problem that any trader I meet that mentions such about themselves...

Don't open another chart, don't take another trade and go get professional psychological help prior to returning to day trading (seriously).

Also, most traders sabotage their own trading before realizing what they've done. You seem to be coming to grips with what you're doing. Further, it will be interesting to see if you're addictive to day trading via continuing exploring it with your day trading discussions and chart examples of particular types of intraday price actions as a discretionary trader (no automation) while knowing you're currently not suitable for it and knowing you have a profitable automation trading system involving day trading and swing trading.

Mark
 
Quote from wrbtrader:

Hi oilfxpro,

You continue answering your own questions that you're currently not suitable for manual day trading (also known as discretionary day trading).

Simply, you know what's profitable for you (automation day trading and automation swing trading). Yet, you remain fixated on discretionary day trading that doesn't work for you. It seems logical to me to spend time & energy on something that works instead of on something that so far has not work considering you're in a very unique situation via having other options. In comparison, most losing discretionary day traders do not have a profitable automation day trading or automation swing trading system like you do.

Further, the #2, #3, #5 and #10 from your above list are very problematic. There such a problem that any trader I meet that mentions such about themselves...

Don't open another chart, don't take another trade and go get professional psychological help prior to returning to day trading (seriously).

Also, most traders sabotage their own trading before realizing what they've done. You seem to be coming to grips with what you're doing. Further, it will be interesting to see if you're addictive to day trading via continuing exploring it with your day trading discussions and chart examples of particular types of intraday price actions as a discretionary trader (no automation) while knowing you're currently not suitable for it and knowing you have a profitable automation trading system involving day trading and swing trading.

*****
My point is that you have profitable methods and you should be concentrating on improvements in your "trade management after entry" of your existing swing trading strategies instead of messing around with learning a new trading style called day trading.
*****

Mark

I am not going to continue with day trading or explore any methods related to day trading.It is not for me.

Quote from wrbtrader:


*****
My point is that you have profitable methods and you should be concentrating on improvements in your "trade management after entry" of your existing swing trading strategies instead of messing around with learning a new trading style called day trading.
*****

Mark [/B]




I am going to use the profitable automated methods , and apply a semi automated version using better trade management .This method using existing profitable strategies applies additional money management techniques to get consistent returns in difficult markets.I have been working on these for about two years, and I am just setting them up.

I have developed a unique position size and risk management system , which can tolerate 75 consecutive losses, it only risks 5 % as draw down with 75 consecutive losses.These trading systems have 43 % hit rate. This is what I am going to apply for trade management.

A load of these automated and swing strategies have signals during the day, but it is not day trading per se.

I am going keep this thread open for knowledge , and memory of what I shouldn't do

Thanks for your posts and suggestion , it is nice to have met somebody knowledgeable and helpful.
 
Very interesting thread and it seems you have acknowledged your weaknesses and are fixing them. I am of the opinion that the level of complexity and risk increase as time frame goes down. Making split second decisions with high leverage is a tall order for any trader.

My suggestion is to increase time frame ie swingtrading, position trading longer charts or something that suits your style. Having success on longer charts is great for confidence boost and putting money into your account a bit easier. Master longer time frames and gently work down to fast (day trading). Good luck!
 
I did thousands of back tests on day trading systems , not one back test showed profitability over 10 years.

The only systems that worked profitably , were on longer time frames with stops between 45 to 100 pips , and on targets of 100 to 250 pips.

Just for the record.
 
how much is your account?

most overtrading problems come from small account: scared money!

day trading is actually fun,not a nuisance.
for small account, it is a good way to generate efficient cash flow. can make small become bigger. if you have 5k, do it 10times, that is 50k. if you have 50k, that is 500k.

the only problem is: you need fast fingers, time the market very accurately, youneed better timing skill than run a big account.


Quote from oilfxpro:

In this attached article are listed most of my discipline problems

1)time frame
2)enviromental distractions
3)fatigue and overtrading
4)overconfidence
5)unwilling to accept losses
6)Excessive leverage
7)type of trading :day trading
8)patience loss of(result of quick day trading)
9)trading plan system for new style of trading
10)personaility traits
11) mental overload with too many things

Some of these discipline problems are endemic to day trading, if day-trading is eliminated most of the disciple problems are reduced.

The other problems can be eliminated by having a system eliminating all the discipline problems.
 
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