Day/SWING/POSITION ?? TRADING

Good topic, I would submit that HH-HL or LL LH is the only thing that really exists in a market, the goal is to clearly define what that is.

Screen time is the only real way to do this. And the OP is correct in that markets are fractal in nature, and if one takes away the time axis, all charts are identical.

Time bring out the illusion of pressure and needing to "act fast". Look at every chart as if you have a thousand years to make up your mind. The tick or two that is not made while you make sure you are right is better than being wrong and losing that tick or two, or more since traders have issues with being wrong.

Find out where you are in the trend. Markets are always trending, don't let the time axis fool you. Then act on that. When you are wrong, and you will be, get on the right side asap.

Hope this helps.
 
Quote from RCG Trader:

Good topic, I would submit that HH-HL or LL LH is the only thing that really exists in a market, the goal is to clearly define what that is.
Screen time is the only real way to do this. And the OP is correct in that markets are fractal in nature, and if one takes away the time axis, all charts are identical.
Time bring out the illusion of pressure and needing to "act fast". Look at every chart as if you have a thousand years to make up your mind. The tick or two that is not made while you make sure you are right is better than being wrong and losing that tick or two, or more since traders have issues with being wrong.
Find out where you are in the trend. Markets are always trending, don't let the time axis fool you. Then act on that. When you are wrong, and you will be, get on the right side asap.
Hope this helps.

Well stated.

I treat trading like baseball.

Use a faster chart to fine tune your skills (batting practice, "seeing" which pitches are in your sweet spot).

Then when you are ready to trade, real money, move to the slower charts and look for those same sweet spots. They come at you a lot slower on the swing charts so it is like playing baseball and everytime YOU get up to bat the pitcher throws to you "underhanded".

Hitting a home run each time is foolhearty. What counts is having an on base percentage above 700.
 
Quote from jokepie:

Hi all,

So, don't we all need to CALM the Fak down and take things slow.


Finally a good thought provoking thread in the psychology section.

Regarding day trading, I find SLOWING myself down helps. I only take 3-4 day trades a day. So in a 7 hour trading day(9:15AM - 4:15PM ET), there are long periods of boredum punchuated by a flurry of activity...I find meditation for me helps greatly.
 
Quote from ProfLogic:

Great idea for discussion.
The only problem is that it's a whole lot more complicated than can be explained in a few simple posts.
You up for the backlash?

Hey, Backlash is always blessing, makes you think and look at aspects that you might have missed.
In other words bring it ON..!!
 
Quote from NoDoji:

I've often said this as well and once posted two charts side by side, a 5-min chart and a daily chart, to demonstrate that price bar patterns look the same no matter what the time frame and as long as you choose a time frame to trade, stick with it and learn to trade it with an edge and good money management, you can be successful.

The big difference in day trading is that you have to make decisions quickly. If you want to swing trade something you can leisurely review static charts at any time, choose an entry price, place a GTC stop or limit order to get you into the position, set your stop loss and profit target (or just trail a stop day by day) and take a peek at your holdings now and then.

If you want to day trade, you're watching price bars in your time frame go by every N minutes, and need to make decisions quickly about what constitutes a valid setup, the price that would trigger your entry, where you'd place a stop (or where you'd average down and place a max stop, if that's your style), where to reasonably target profit taking, how to manage the trade in progress, etc. If you're day trading off price bars of 5 mins or less, these decisions often have to be made very quickly. If you're trading more than one thing, it compounds the complexity of recognizing setups and managing trades.

One of the most common things I read in day trading journals here is along the lines of, "I hesitated and it turned out to be a great trade and I missed it." Or, "I missed the entry and chased the trade..." Or, "The trades I didn't take were big winners and the ones I did take were losers."

To day trade intraday swings off time frames of 5 mins or less, you need preparation (minor and major S/R levels, plus trend direction in your time frame and the larger time frame), focus (no reading emails, playing video games, getting up late and missing the nice morning volatility), instant identification of a setup (know what it looks like as it forms at the hard right edge, not just on a static chart at the end of the day), and the ability to place your limit or stop orders in advance to prevent yourself from hesitating or missing the entry altogether. You need to stay focused during periods of boring price action because out of narrow ranges/consolidation come big moves and that's your daily bread and butter.

So unless you're able to recognize (setups) patterns quickly in real time and act on them right away, throughout the day, trading all valid setups, you will be much better off swing trading, IMHO.

The reason the day trades beginners take are losers or b/e and the ones they miss are the big winners is often because the big moves come out of volatile price action in a fast moving market on volume, which is "scarier" than trading after a move is done and price consolidates for the next push. Then everyone has time to think about the same stuff and you get chopped up because there's indecision, though it seems easier to trade that stuff, but it's trying to make something out of nothing when you missed the "big something" while it was in progress.


Very well said,

I what could help a day trader, to do better other than just pure experience. Can meditation help ?? HAs anyone realized meditations benifit in staying objective ??

I believe Acknowledging this is a BIG step in shaping our psychy towards our actions and more importantly Understanding the outcomes (positive or Negative).
 
Quote from RCG Trader:

Good topic, I would submit that HH-HL or LL LH is the only thing that really exists in a market, the goal is to clearly define what that is.

Screen time is the only real way to do this. And the OP is correct in that markets are fractal in nature, and if one takes away the time axis, all charts are identical.

Time bring out the illusion of pressure and needing to "act fast". Look at every chart as if you have a thousand years to make up your mind. The tick or two that is not made while you make sure you are right is better than being wrong and losing that tick or two, or more since traders have issues with being wrong.

Find out where you are in the trend. Markets are always trending, don't let the time axis fool you. Then act on that. When you are wrong, and you will be, get on the right side asap.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for supporting the Idea. very nicely put. Especially about the Illusion.

I think Each one of us need to find our Focus, just like a cameras Auto focus. where things look clearer and easier to act upon.

When ever I saw a bullet fired on Discovery and was captured by a Highspeed camera - it would excite me to think wish i could see things that move that fast. :cool:

I think what happens is that (and this is my best guess) our EYES get focussed on the next candle that is getting painted, after a while our emotions start to fluctuate with the color, size, and speed of IT. I guess we should Zoom out every few seconds to refresh our mind.

Just trying to brainstorm 0 what could possibly help to stay calm and remain focussed.
 
If there is equal amount of experience for long term trading and day trading, in my experiences, much more profits are made in long term and a great deal less time. Day trading, one often misses parts of long swings in price movements and gaps, many more commisions, you eyes and body wears out much faster, much more stress, reward to risk is often 1 to 1 or worse. Whereas long term, reward to risk can be 5 to 1 and much larger, one trade perhaps for an entire year in one stock. And you can be having a full time business doing something else.

And come the end of April, retiring from day trading after 25 years of it. There are much better things to do in my life than be watching every tic any more. I still have many ideas I plan on testing for long term methods that I want to investigate.

Have a fine weekend all.
 
Quote from Handle123:

Day trading, one often misses parts of long swings in price movements and gaps, many more commisions, you eyes and body wears out much faster, much more stress, reward to risk is often 1 to 1 or worse. Whereas long term, reward to risk can be 5 to 1 and much larger, one trade perhaps for an entire year in one stock.

It's awesome that you've daytraded for 25 years, but your assessment of 1:1 risk-to-reward for intraday trading of stocks is wrong. Maybe it was right for the type of trading that you did, but in my trading for the past 4 years (currently in my 5th year full-time) it isn't right at all.

I do agree that there is much more money to be made with less activity in the longer-term.
 
Quote from ElecEquity:


I do agree that there is much more money to be made with less activity in the longer-term.

How can an individual then deal with the issue of capital for long term trading, I mean due to leverage at a broker or prop firm we can day trade will with decent capital other wise what is a starting capital of 30K good for..? a thousand shares of fas and what you can have a potential of may be few thousands in a few months. Its probably a rhetorical question.

Hummm....I know some one mention this in an earlier post as well.
 
Quote from ElecEquity:

It's awesome that you've daytraded for 25 years, but your assessment of 1:1 risk-to-reward for intraday trading of stocks is wrong. Maybe it was right for the type of trading that you did, but in my trading for the past 4 years (currently in my 5th year full-time) it isn't right at all.

I do agree that there is much more money to be made with less activity in the longer-term.

I primarily day-trade futures, occasionally day trade IBM and Google. But I found for myself, going for bigger profits in ES are not my style, nothing I backtested offered consistent daily returns. Instead of shooting for larger profits and which often means smaller winning percentage, I found that for myself, that smaller profits are often easier to get, then using many money management rules allowed my losing percentages to first go below fifteen percent, a mixture of wins and breakevens was left. Since losing percentage was low, I backtested adding to a losing position would make a breakeven trades, very profitable. When I added and was able to accept time elements after my entry, this lowered my losing percentages even more. When I added volume to my charts, this allowed me to pass on at least one losing trade per day, I didn't care if I missed winning trades, so long as I miss at least equal amount of wins/losses, and when I got a 'feeling" for reading the DOME, I could get in one tic better or stay 1-3 tics longer. ES, I can do fairly good size, whereas in stocks, not always that way.

Back in the 80's and 90's when S&P traded in nickels and big point was $500, I could risk next to nothing 3-5 tics and target a full point or two, but now the Emini ES is so watered down so that underfunded and inexperienced can trade. For consistent gains, I have to risk more and get less.

I think it is important to be able to discover who you are as a trader, the earlier the better. I just found backtesting, trading the ES at certain areas, time or volume, counter-trend moves happen so much easier for 1-4 tics. But it always comes down to your personality, what are you willing to accept. When I was much younger, I could handle 40% losing trades, but after so many years and not wanting to do 150 trades a day, I have abandoned larger dollar per winning trade for smaller losing percentages and only 20-40 trades a day. And that is not much for scalping.
 
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