Dairy and meat are the key to health

[Frederick Foresight]

I read this entire post. Nothing in here refutes the science in the book Why We Get Fat. It goes after Gary, his dimensions and how he argues things but spends more time talking about the Atkins diet than anything else.

The Atkins diet is mentioned in Why We Get Fat for all of about 3 pages. Its given a cursory glance. That's it. Why this guy spends all the time on it I have no idea.

I'm not defending the atkins diet (you brought up Atkins, as did this blogger). That's not at all what i've been talking about.

So, in a nutshell, what are Taubes's dietary recommendations?

 

[BeautifulStranger]

To say "I challenge anyone to gain weight" is a very open ended challenge. Women in menopause, for example, will likely gain weight on this plant based diet. Do you know why? I do.

Change in women’s hormones after menopause reduces caloric needs and their weight will increase if all other inputs will stay the same. The beauty of complex, fibrous carbs found in vegetables is the ease in maintaining normal blood glycogen levels. This causes appetite to be self adjusting. As a bonus, vegetables have low calories requiring an tremendous amount of sustained effort to gain weight. Further, a vegan’s energy levels are consistent, without the post meal energy drops that may be seen with other foods, even including meats. So instead of taking a nap after a meal, the vegan will be more likely be doing stuff and using more calories all the while.

Some of my mom’s friends are vegan, hit menopause, and absolutely have no issues with extra weight.

Now before you stumple upon an article that talks about cows, remember cows are also fed grains and hormones for weight gain.

The Meat and Dairy Association is a powerful lobby and spends an extensive amount of money on advertising. “Pork, the other white meat”. “Steak, its what’s for dinner”. I suspect this Association is behind much of the fake science concerning diets, similar to the practices of the pharmaceutical, tobacco, and industrial companies. The Meat and Dairy Association has apparently been able to influence dietary recommodations in the US. For example, compare Canadian dietary recommodations to the US, even though beef is a major Canadian export.

Further, I’m aware of a doctor who is critical of adults using dairy products over long term health concerns.

The key is to understand human energy, hormonal systems, and physiology. As a truck driver by trade, I claim no such expertise, but I have read various research studies on the subject. If you really want to take a stab at understanding the science behind various diets, read the studies and their methodologies.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Change in women’s hormones after menopause reduces caloric needs and their weight will increase if all other inputs will stay the same. The beauty of complex, fibrous carbs found in vegetables is the ease in maintaining normal blood glycogen levels. This causes appetite to be self adjusting. As a bonus, vegetables have low calories requiring an tremendous amount of sustained effort to gain weight. Further, a vegan’s energy levels are consistent, without the post meal energy drops that may be seen with other foods, even including meats. So instead of taking a nap after a meal, the vegan will be more likely be doing stuff and using more calories all the while.

Some of my mom’s friends are vegan, hit menopause, and absolutely have no issues with extra weight.

Now before you stumple upon an article that talks about cows, remember cows are also fed grains and hormones for weight gain.

The Meat and Dairy Association is a powerful lobby and spends an extensive amount of money on advertising. “Pork, the other white meat”. “Steak, its what’s for dinner”. I suspect this Association is behind much of the fake science concerning diets, similar to the practices of the pharmaceutical, tobacco, and industrial companies. The Meat and Dairy Association has apparently been able to influence dietary recommodations in the US. For example, compare Canadian dietary recommodations to the US, even though beef is a major Canadian export.

Further, I’m aware of a doctor who is critical of adults using dairy products over long term health concerns.

The key is to understand human energy, hormonal systems, and physiology. As a truck driver by trade, I claim no such expertise, but I have read various research studies on the subject. If you really want to take a stab at understanding the science behind various diets, read the studies and their methodologies.

Female rats were given an ovariectomy and separated into two groups. One group was calorie restricted (essentially limited to the calories the rat ate prior to the procedure) and one group could eat as many calories as they wanted.

Rats prior to the surgery were given all they wanted in calories, but they did not get obese. Rats post procedure who were given all the calories they wanted, got obese.

Rats who were on a restricted caloric intake - got obese. The only difference is that they were completely and totally sedentary. They never moved unless they absolutely had to in order to get food.

You can find this accepted, peer-reviewed study quite easily in searching google.

Rats supplemented with estrogen post procedure and were offered as many calories as they wanted did not gain weight.

What was found was a direct link between estrogen and LPL (the Lipoprotein Lipase I mentioned) that triggers fats targeting a cell - in this case, a fat cell over a muscle cell.

Women have this issue as they go through menopause. But again, it has to do with an insulin reaction at the end of the day to determine why they do, and do not, get fat. The estrogen is only a small part of the equation.

If the plant diet doesn't trigger insulin response of any magnitude, you'll be fine. If it does (as it does in some individuals because some individuals are much sensitive to carbs OR they have already developed insulin resistance) then a plant diet won't work.

 

[BeautifulStranger]

Female rats were given an ovariectomy and separated into two groups. One group was calorie restricted (essentially limited to the calories the rat ate prior to the procedure) and one group could eat as many calories as they wanted.

Rats prior to the surgery were given all they wanted in calories, but they did not get obese. Rats post procedure who were given all the calories they wanted, got obese.

Rats who were on a restricted caloric intake - got obese. The only difference is that they were completely and totally sedentary. They never moved unless they absolutely had to in order to get food.

You can find this accepted, peer-reviewed study quite easily in searching google.

Rats supplemented with estrogen post procedure and were offered as many calories as they wanted did not gain weight.

What was found was a direct link between estrogen and LPL (the Lipoprotein Lipase I mentioned) that triggers fats targeting a cell - in this case, a fat cell over a muscle cell.

Women have this issue as they go through menopause. But again, it has to do with an insulin reaction at the end of the day to determine why they do, and do not, get fat. The estrogen is only a small part of the equation.

If the plant diet doesn't trigger insulin response of any magnitude, you'll be fine. If it does (as it does in some individuals because some individuals are much sensitive to carbs OR they have already developed insulin resistance) then a plant diet won't work.

One can overcome insulin resistance by either fasting or through increased excercise. Again, the key is reducing built up glycogen levels in the blood and tissues. For me, a sustained hike or workout than burns 1500 calories is all that is needed to make me “Right as rain”. A calorie restricted diet over say three days or a 24 hour fast will achieve the same thing in many people. Indeed, fasting is part of some religious practices as well as the admonition to not eat pork. Speaking of pork, the Pork Association has apparently attacked this practice, possibly even getting new Bible versions that are not so negative on pork.

In the final analysis, I guess to comes down to what we want to believe. I like the taste of meat and will usually eat more than my body can digest at one time. However, my energy levels are highest after a balanced, whole food meal.

Maintaining normal and steady glycogen levels help regulate one’s appetite, thus avoiding a cause of overeating. Another contributor to overeating in some people is caffeine. For example, look at Seattle, WA coffee capitol of the United States. Seattle, WA also has a significantly higher obesity rate than average. Caffeine messes with one’s hormones. However, those who regularly excercise can overcome those negative effects of caffeine.

 

[Tsing Tao]

One can overcome insulin resistance by either fasting or through increased excercise. Again, the key is reducing built up glycogen levels in the blood and tissues. For me, a sustained hike or workout than burns 1500 calories is all that is needed to make me “Right as rain”. A calorie restricted diet over say three days or a 24 hour fast will achieve the same thing in many people. Indeed, fasting is part of some religious practices as well as the admonition to not eat pork. Speaking of pork, the Pork Association has apparently attacked this practice, possibly even getting new Bible versions that are not so negative on pork.

In the final analysis, I guess to comes down to what we want to believe. I like the taste of meat and will usually eat more than my body can digest at one time. However, my energy levels are highest after a balanced, whole food meal.

Maintaining normal and steady glycogen levels help regulate one’s appetite, thus avoiding a cause of overeating. Another contributor to overeating in some people is caffeine. For example, look at Seattle, WA coffee capitol of the United States. Seattle, WA also has a significantly higher obesity rate than average. Caffeine messes with one’s hormones. However, those who regularly excercise can overcome those negative effects of caffeine.

I just want to be clear with what you are saying. Are you saying insulin resistance in muscle and liver cells - which is something that has been built up over the lifespan of the individual - is something that can be countered in a 24 or 72 hour fast?

I feel this should be cleared up before we proceed.

 

[BeautifulStranger]

I just want to be clear with what you are saying. Are you saying insulin resistance in muscle and liver cells - which is something that has been built up over the lifespan of the individual - is something that can be countered in a 24 or 72 hour fast?

I feel this should be cleared up before we proceed.

I am not talking about those with diabetes. No opinion formed there, but dietary changes in that group are potentially dangerous when taking insulin. I’m talking about people who have built up their glycogen stores over the course of a day or who have maintained a consistently high level of glycogen for years as seeing an immediate effect when depleting these stores 75%. The average glycogen capacity for a person is around 2000 dalories. At some point, excess glycogen is turned into fat, so years are not necessarily revelant here.

It is my belief than insulin resistance can be cured by reducing one’s glycogen stores significantly for an immediate beneficial effect and maintaining low glocogen stores over the course of several weeks for a long lasting effect.

I’ll use myself as a guina pig to demonstrate my point. My current glycogen stores are near maximum right now after eating and digesting a big bowl of spaghetti. I have not fasted or let my glycogen level drop much for a while. I’ll fast and do a fifteen mile hike over the next 24 hours. I predict after a post hike rest, eating a piece of fruit will have a noticable “Pop” in flavor and my energy levels will be higher than they are as I type this. Further, I will convert my diet thereafter to a vegan only diet. My protein sources will be from beans, nuts, and spinach. There will be no calorie restrictions placed on my diet. I will report my progress weekly in a journal.

If your personal glycogen situation is currently similar to mine, perhaps you could volunteer to be a guinea pig as well. We then can compare notes. In the alternative, perhaps you can recruit someone else.

The key for the initial phase of this test is a glycogen stores reduction of 75%. This means sustained excerise without eating until about 1500 calories are burned for an average sized, or a little larger, male, as in my case. The immediate physical effects of this test are exhaustion, like what marrathoners call “Hitting the wall”, except once hit, it is ok to stop.

You game?

Regardless of what you decide, I will do this and report back at 1900 Eastern time tomorrow. If I’m conscious! If you have any suggestions for subtests you want me to perform, feel free to let me know.

By the way, thanks for bringing diet and excecise back to top of mind.

 

[Tsing Tao]

I am not talking about those with diabetes. No opinion formed there, but dietary changes in that group are potentially dangerous when taking insulin. I’m talking about people who have built up their glycogen stores over the course of a day or who have maintained a consistently high level of glycogen for years as seeing an immediate effect when depleting these stores 75%. The average glycogen capacity for a person is around 2000 dalories. At some point, excess glycogen is turned into fat, so years are not necessarily revelant here.

It is my belief than insulin resistance can be cured by reducing one’s glycogen stores significantly for an immediate beneficial effect and maintaining low glocogen stores over the course of several weeks for a long lasting effect.

I’ll use myself as a guina pig to demonstrate my point. My current glycogen stores are near maximum right now after eating and digesting a big bowl of spaghetti. I have not fasted or let my glycogen level drop much for a while. I’ll fast and do a fifteen mile hike over the next 24 hours. I predict after a post hike rest, eating a piece of fruit will have a noticable “Pop” in flavor and my energy levels will be higher than they are as I type this. Further, I will convert my diet thereafter to a vegan only diet. My protein sources will be from beans, nuts, and spinach. There will be no calorie restrictions placed on my diet. I will report my progress weekly in a journal.

If your personal glycogen situation is currently similar to mine, perhaps you could volunteer to be a guinea pig as well. We then can compare notes. In the alternative, perhaps you can recruit someone else.

The key for the initial phase of this test is a glycogen stores reduction of 75%. This means sustained excerise without eating until about 1500 calories are burned for an average sized, or a little larger, male, as in my case. The immediate physical effects of this test are exhaustion, like what marrathoners call “Hitting the wall”, except once hit, it is ok to stop.

You game?

Regardless of what you decide, I will do this and report back at 1900 Eastern time tomorrow. If I’m conscious! If you have any suggestions for subtests you want me to perform, feel free to let me know.

By the way, thanks for bringing diet and excecise back to top of mind.

First, I believe you are using your situation as the baseline in your commentary, which - based on what I've seen you say - is very much far from the average person in the US. The very fact that you'll be doing a 15 mile hike in the next 24 hours puts you at the top 5% of the threshold for exercise vs. the general population, and certainly way above the 40% or so obese population in the United States (2017-2018 numbers).

The term "insulin resistance" is a chronic condition. It isn't something you overcome in a 24 hour fast. Insulin resistance is pathological, and occurs when liver and muscle cells no longer respond to normal levels of insulin and as such can no longer get their energy in the same manner. This condition is exceptionally difficult to overturn and can often begin early in life.

I highly recommend you read up on the condition. What you seem to be more referring to is a state of heightened insulin that then transitions to intermediate fasting. This is a natural process that fluctuates in a healthy person on a daily basis. You eat, blood sugar rises, insulin follows. This causes fatty acids and sugars to replenish energy in fat cells on a temporary basis while diverting some to muscle and liver cells. At night, during a normal human being's fast time (unless you raid the fridge in the middle of the night), the body begins to pull out these fatty acids to send them to muscle cells as insulin goes to negligible levels. If you exercise, you accelerate this condition. But this condition isn't insulin resistance at all. It is the normal behavior of the pancreas, fat and muscle cells and how any healthy person responds during, after and between meals.

 

[BeautifulStranger]

First, I believe you are using your situation as the baseline in your commentary, which - based on what I've seen you say - is very much far from the average person in the US. The very fact that you'll be doing a 15 mile hike in the next 24 hours puts you at the top 5% of the threshold for exercise vs. the general population, and certainly way above the 40% or so obese population in the United States (2017-2018 numbers).

The term "insulin resistance" is a chronic condition. It isn't something you overcome in a 24 hour fast. Insulin resistance is pathological, and occurs when liver and muscle cells no longer respond to normal levels of insulin and as such can no longer get their energy in the same manner. This condition is exceptionally difficult to overturn and can often begin early in life.

I highly recommend you read up on the condition. What you seem to be more referring to is a state of heightened insulin that then transitions to intermediate fasting. This is a natural process that fluctuates in a healthy person on a daily basis. You eat, blood sugar rises, insulin follows. This causes fatty acids and sugars to replenish energy in fat cells on a temporary basis while diverting some to muscle and liver cells. At night, during a normal human being's fast time (unless you raid the fridge in the middle of the night), the body begins to pull out these fatty acids to send them to muscle cells as insulin goes to negligible levels. If you exercise, you accelerate this condition. But this condition isn't insulin resistance at all. It is the normal behavior of the pancreas, fat and muscle cells and how any healthy person responds during, after and between meals.

It’s too late. You got me going now! It’s all good as I have some weight to lose.

Good points, but the liver can be very responsive to changes in one’s habits. Insulin resistance can absolutely by cured by proper diet and exercise. Carbs found in vegetables make it difficult to maintain high glycogen levels. The practical aspect to this is lasting behaviour modification when someone is experiencing a craving. This is where the beauty of maintaining low glycogen levels come in and having a solid diet and excercise plan. Fatty foods such as grapeseed oil, olive oil, and peanut butter have very high satiety levels after a fast, making it easier to maintain beneficial levels of glycogen than one might otherwise expect.

Regardless, I’ll be putting food where my mouth is and will report back the results in my new journal.

Thanks again.

 

[murray t turtle]

A calorie restricted diet over say three days or a 24 hour fast will achieve the same thing in many people. Indeed, fasting is part of some religious practices as well as the admonition to not eat pork. Speaking of pork, the Pork Association has apparently attacked this practice, possibly even getting new Bible versions that are not so negative on pork.

In the final analysis, I guess to comes down to what we want to believe. I like the taste of meat and will usually eat more than my body can digest at one time. However, my energy levels are highest after a balanced, whole food meal.

Maintaining normal and steady glycogen levels help regulate one’s appetite, thus avoiding a cause of overeating. Another contributor to overeating in some people is caffeine. For example, look at Seattle, WA coffee capitol of the United States. Seattle, WA also has a significantly higher obesity rate than average. Caffeine messes with one’s hormones. However, those who regularly excercise can overcome those negative effects of caffeine.[/end QUOTE]
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IF we may not eat enough veggies;
free range hen eggs/homegrown eggs from greens eating hens+ grass earing hens help...…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… 2 0r 3 cups of coffee helps.

 

[Tsing Tao]

It’s too late. You got me going now! It’s all good as I have some weight to lose.

Good points, but the liver can be very responsive to changes in one’s habits. Insulin resistance can absolutely by cured by proper diet and exercise. Carbs found in vegetables make it difficult to maintain high glycogen levels. The practical aspect to this is lasting behaviour modification when someone is experiencing a craving. This is where the beauty of maintaining low glycogen levels come in and having a solid diet and excercise plan. Fatty foods such as grapeseed oil, olive oil, and peanut butter have very high satiety levels after a fast, making it easier to maintain beneficial levels of glycogen than one might otherwise expect.

Regardless, I’ll be putting food where my mouth is and will report back the results in my new journal.

Thanks again.

I didn't say insulin resistance could not be cured by proper diet and exercise. All I said was you couldn't address it in 24-72 hours like you indicated.

Carbs found in vegetables generally make it difficult to maintain high glycogen levels, yes. Some folks still have a problem with them.

Everything else you said I am in total agreement with and look forward to your journal. I wish you complete and lasting success and health.