Cutting losses - not the best idea

I'm curious if mrmarket or anyone who prides him or herself on fundamentals has ever been caught in an Enron? I ask because I'm curious if how in depth their analysis is on a particular company.

Fundies should not have been caught in Enron; they should have seen warning signs on the cash flow side that would've sent warning flags up. Then again it was the bubblemania and if that monkey in that Williams commercial could trade energy, hell, this must be an easy business.
 
The thread is not devoted to Jack.

And I agree that it should be in the Strategy Trading forum; however, the potential for controversy was so great imo that I was not going to ask another moderator to clean up a mess that I can clean up myself.

The number of views the thread has received speaks for itself. While that number doesn't necessarily reflect worth, it does reflect interest.

Here is the model as provided by MrMarket. It doesn't require deciphering.

HOW MY STOCK PICKING MODEL WORKS

I developed a stock-picking model when I was in graduate school to take advantage of the bullishness the market was exhibiting at the time. The premise was to invest in high beta stocks while trying to limit my downside exposure in the event of a stall or downturn. By using the quantitative steps in the model, stocks are selected that are experiencing sustainable price momentum. The model is a multistep screening and high-grade process that goes something like this:

First, create a universe of about 200 stocks that have demonstrated strong price appreciation and earnings growth in the last 12 months. You can find some pretty good free and easy to use screening tools on the Internet such as Quicken, Stockpoint or MSN. I use the following screening criteria to build my universe of stocks:

Screen #1: Stocks making new highs with IBD EPS rating of 90 or higher

Screen #2: Stocks within 2% of their 52 week high with a 52 week price appreciation > 300%

Screen #3: Stocks within 5% of their 52 week high with a 52 week price appreciation > 150% and EPS growth of 25%

Screen #4: Stocks within 5% of their 52 week high with a 52 week price appreciation > 125% and P/E < 50

Screen #5: Stocks within 5% of their 52 week high with a 52 week price appreciation > 50% and P/E < 15

Screen #6: Stocks within 10% of their 52 week high with a 52 week price appreciation >100% and P/E < 100 and 3 year earnings growth of 50% and 5 year sales growth of 25%

Screen #7: Stocks with Investors Business Daily Ratings greater than 95 EPS and 95 RS.

Screen #8: Stocks with Investors Business Daily Ratings greater than 90 RS and PE less than 20.



Each screen will yield about 20 – 25 stocks. Rank these stocks on the following criteria: Price Appreciation, Price Appreciation divided by trailing 12 month P/E, Price Appreciation divided by forward 12 month P/E. Weight each criterion equally and rerank the database. This process favors stocks with more reasonable valuations and weeds out those with no earnings.

Take the top 20 stocks and rank by 12-month revenue growth.

Take the top 10 stocks and run a time series regression analysis on the daily prices for the last 12 months and rank by the highest r-squared correlation coefficient.

Take the top three stocks in order and perform due diligence to determine if there were any one time non – operating factors that affected the data just analyzed (asset sales, lawsuits, financing, etc.) or if there is any pending news of significance that could upset the applecart. Select the highest ranked stock that clears this hurdle.

Buy this stock. In a typical bull market, the stock will, on average, achieve a 15% gain within 4 to 6 weeks. Sell the stock and repeat the process. Why sell so soon? Well there are ever changing phenomena going on in the market that could make your selection criteria quite different a month after the signals told you to buy this stock. The theory here is that you are selling a potentially "tired" stock and trading it for a "fresh" one.

What this process is trying to do is to select a hot growth stock that has a little more juice left in it to get you that last 15% without being so hideously overvalued that it could drop like a rock. I don’t think I need to buy stocks with extended valuations to make a quick profit. There are stocks out there with good momentum that aren’t bad to hold if I make a wrong decision. I think my model finds them. My model has been successful in protecting me from real lemons. Preservation of capital is always important. Buying companies with real earnings protects me in the down markets. We all work hard for our money. It makes no sense to give it away. That’s why I believe it’s important to buy stock in companies with real earnings.
 
Quote from inandlong:

The thread is not devoted to Jack.

A thread entitled The Jack Hershey Stock Trading Method is not devoted to Jack?

Be fair, ial. If you're going to put Jack under your wing, you ought to put MrMarket there as well. Bragging about meats and cheeses is no more obnoxious than bragging about 40 books and close personal ties to the White House.

Personally, I don't think either one of them is worth an afternoon. But this differential treatment is more than a bit strange.
 
Quote from mrmarket:

If you take a look at my last 12 closed trades, a little bit of data mining will reveal that most of these positions, at one time, were underwater more than 8%... I illustrate this because I believe it is important for the trader to know why a stock is behaving the way it is. A cowardly sell off on bad news does not mean that a company is, all of a sudden, rotten. Unless a company's business model changes, there is no need to sell its stock because of an adverse price move.

Of course having formal training in balance sheet and income statement analysis certainly helps with this algorithm. Comments?
My comments. Your last paragraph is pompous. Insofar as the premise you pose, any sell off, on bad news or fundamentals, is a sell off, no matter the reason why. If you're in long, why not get out with either a small loss or a bit of profit? Put the money to work elsewhere where a stock isn't declining. When and if the price recovers, you can always enter again, unless you're in someplace better. Doing so, there is no cost of opportunity lost plus preservation of capital.

It's O'Neil who recommends setting an 8% loss as a stop. And there's a specific reason why he does. But there's much more to setting and using stops than that. So much more that it's another topic. Suffice it to say, I wouldn't call O'Neil's 8% stop loss rule anywhere close to how best to use stops.
 
There is some truth to what Mr Market says and that can be said regardless of your style. In the early part of a trade, you have to know when to wait for an adverse move to turn around and when to get out. I would say that most of my losses since I started trading were whipsaws. I noticed that if the market moves immediately against me it's better to wait for it to come back (unless I am playing a reversal, which I shy away from usually especially on the short side) however if it moves quickly in my favor then comes back then I must get out because it's probably reversing. Also in Forex cutting losses too quickly (ex. less than 50bps in EUR/USD) is just going to cause losses after losses.

As for the 8% stop loss that Oneill recommends, I think a lot of break out stall and come back before really moving up again so you must get whipsawed a lot with his method unless you are in a raging bull like now. Keep in mind that he has a lot of followers buying at the same time too.
 
Quote from gms:

It's O'Neil who recommends setting an 8% loss as a stop.

This has been stated a number of times by a number of people but it's only partly true. Yes, O'N does recommend setting an 8-10% stop below whatever price should have been the entry price (NOT the price one actually entered at). BUT. This applies only to the initial loss-limit. Nowhere does he say that one should maintain an 8-10% trailing stop loss.
 
Quote from Kicking:

There is some truth to what Mr Market says and that can be said regardless of your style. In the early part of a trade, you have to know when to wait for an adverse move to turn around and when to get out. I would say that most of my losses since I started trading were whipsaws. I noticed that if the market moves immediately against me it's better to wait for it to come back (unless I am playing a reversal, which I shy away from usually especially on the short side) however if it moves quickly in my favor then comes back then I must get out because it's probably reversing. Also in Forex cutting losses too quickly (ex. less than 50bps in EUR/USD) is just going to cause losses after losses.

As for the 8% stop loss that Oneill recommends, I think a lot of break out stall and come back before really moving up again so you must get whipsawed a lot with his method unless you are in a raging bull like now. Keep in mind that he has a lot of followers buying at the same time too.


I agree with everything that you say and you put it much better than I ever could.
 
In a bull market, staying long during corrections will clearly make more money than selling out.

The obvious question is how to do that whilst avoiding getting screwed when a bear market comes along.
 
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