Credit Default Swaps (CDS) wtf?

Quote from daddyeaux:

and you have an swap market 62 trillion in size

and yes, it is wild shit.

Wrong.
It's about half that.
$34.8 trillion as of October 9th.
 
Quote from dve250:

These CDS are nothing more than illegal insurance. It's similar to an illegal lottery or gambling ring. When authorities step in and shut down an illegal lottery, the ticket holders lose their money. Authorities need to declare the CDS illegal and the problem goes away. I don't think it's all that complicated as they make it out to be.

:confused:
 
Quote from dve250:

So what don't you understand? Do I need to hold your hand and take you through it?

No one has declared these CDS "contracts" illegal. The amount of counter-party risk isn't going away anytime soon. There are still a series of CDS auctions coming up . . . and just because you think that CDS's could be declared "illegal" doesn't mean that the current counter-party risk ( which is huge ) somehow evaporates. The cash has to come from somewhere.

http://www.isda.org/
 
Quote from ByLoSellHi:

The problem with Credit Default Swaps is that there is no requirement to set aside an adequate amount of capital at the time the vehicle is sold, to ensure that the money is there to pay out on the loss if the 'insured' instrument goes into default.

Words matter. By calling it a Credit Default Swap, rather than a Credit Default Insurance [Policy], the clever people on Wall Street were able to keep these products from being regulated as insurance products are, which would have required adequate capital reserves be set aside to cover losses.

But decisions made at a brief meeting on April 28, 2004, explain why the problems could spin out of control. The agency’s failure to follow through on those decisions also explains why Washington regulators did not see what was coming.

On that bright spring afternoon, the five members of the Securities and Exchange Commission met in a basement hearing room to consider an urgent plea by the big investment banks.

They wanted an exemption for their brokerage units from an old regulation that limited the amount of debt they could take on. The exemption would unshackle billions of dollars held in reserve as a cushion against losses on their investments. Those funds could then flow up to the parent company, enabling it to invest in the fast-growing but opaque world of mortgage-backed securities; credit derivatives, a form of insurance for bond holders; and other exotic instruments.

The five investment banks led the charge, including Goldman Sachs, which was headed by Henry M. Paulson Jr. Two years later, he left to become Treasury secretary.

A lone dissenter — a software consultant and expert on risk management — weighed in from Indiana with a two-page letter to warn the commission that the move was a grave mistake. He never heard back from Washington.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/business/03sec.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
 
There seems to be a lot of questions on CDS and some mis information. First they are swaps in the traditional sense that it is an exchange of fixed for floating payments. CDS have a particular feature in certain events (default, reorganization etc.) This is why they are not insurance (strictly speaking). I'm not here to defend the CDS market or its players. That said, it is messed up and needs fixing.
 
Quote from Landis82:

No one has declared these CDS "contracts" illegal. The amount of counter-party risk isn't going away anytime soon. There are still a series of CDS auctions coming up . . . and just because you think that CDS's could be declared "illegal" doesn't mean that the current counter-party risk ( which is huge ) somehow evaporates. The cash has to come from somewhere.

http://www.isda.org/

I know they haven't been declared illegal but should and coud be. Since they are insurance against corporate bonds but named something else to subvert the insurance regulations, they are, in my opinion, illegal insurance. If the alternative is to lets these worthless pieces of paper ruin our economy then the legislatures should step in and declare them illegal and non enforcable in the courts. People that own these CDSs are just speculators anyway. Someone needs to step up and draw the line and set things right.
 
Quote from dve250:

I know they haven't been declared illegal but should and coud be. Since they are insurance against corporate bonds but named something else to subvert the insurance regulations, they are, in my opinion, illegal insurance. If the alternative is to lets these worthless pieces of paper ruin our economy then the legislatures should step in and declare them illegal and non enforcable in the courts. People that own these CDSs are just speculators anyway. Someone needs to step up and draw the line and set things right.

What does cds have anything to do with ruining the economy? It's no different from a equity call or put ...

And what you think is an insurance contract doesn't matter. It's not.
 
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