Coronavirus: Boris Johnson moved to intensive care as symptoms worsen

[ET180]

I think you badly missed my point. Taking the actions I was responding to will be perceived by China in much the same way launching nukes at them would be. They will react violently. None of us will be better off for it.

I understood that you were not literally talking about launching nukes at China. I was referring to no need to make them pay reparations (which they would not do anyway). Although it sounds like you might have an argument for why the US should have just sold the Japanese oil in order to avoid World War II. Just saying that it is far past time to decouple from China. I like the Chinese people, they work hard, I respect anyone who works hard and values self-improvement. But it's the Chinese government that I fear -- they are totalitarian, power-hungry, do not respect freedom and the free flow of truthful information...nor do they respect the lives of their own people.

Probably time to get off our high horse as well. The U.S. lie's, cheats, and steals every chance we get as well. I mean hell, at least China didn't invade anyone and put their country into decades of civil war because of some fabricated claim about weapons of mass destruction in the last 20 years! Obviously we see things through our lense and everyone else sees things through theirs. But it's pretty crucial to be able to see the world through the lense of others, if for no other reason then to be able to predict how they will react. And the reaction to the suggestions posed will most probably lead to another partitioning of the world and a second cold war, China is already staking out allies and the U.S. has given them free reign to do wo with the whole "'Murica First" bullshit of abandoning even our allies.

Lie:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html
https://www.economist.com/asia/2018...ised-the-south-china-sea-and-got-away-with-it

Cheat:

Show me an example of blatant IP / copyright theft in the US that parallels this from China:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-rovers-barred-in-rare-mainland-court-victory

Yeh, Jaguar eventually won a legal victory to stop production of the vehicle, but it took 5 years. By that time, the company likely sold all the cars they could. You would never see that happen in the US.

How about a fake Apple store and fake Apple products:

https://mashable.com/2016/06/17/apple-china-knockoffs/

Steal:

https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-hackers-us-navy-secrets-2018-12
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-i...stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html

 

[schizo]

UK foreign secretary to lead country; Japan declares state of emergency; China reports no deaths from Covid-19

In the meantime, how is our boy, Boris, doing today?

Boris Johnson is to spend a second night in intensive care amid concerns about the seriousness of his condition. The prime minister required oxygen for breathing problems but he had not been placed on a ventilator and did not have pneumonia.

source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/boris-johnson-to-stay-in-hospital-amid-concerns-over-political-vacuum

 

[Sig]

I understood that you were not literally talking about launching nukes at China. I was referring to no need to make them pay reparations (which they would not do anyway). Although it sounds like you might have an argument for why the US should have just sold the Japanese oil in order to avoid World War II. Just saying that it is far past time to decouple from China. I like the Chinese people, they work hard, I respect anyone who works hard and values self-improvement. But it's the Chinese government that I fear -- they are totalitarian, power-hungry, do not respect freedom and the free flow of truthful information...nor do they respect the lives of their own people.



Lie:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html
https://www.economist.com/asia/2018...ised-the-south-china-sea-and-got-away-with-it

Cheat:

Show me an example of blatant IP / copyright theft in the US that parallels this from China:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-rovers-barred-in-rare-mainland-court-victory

Yeh, Jaguar eventually won a legal victory to stop production of the vehicle, but it took 5 years. By that time, the company likely sold all the cars they could. You would never see that happen in the US.

How about a fake Apple store and fake Apple products:

https://mashable.com/2016/06/17/apple-china-knockoffs/

Steal:

https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-hackers-us-navy-secrets-2018-12
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-i...stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html

I don't think we disagree really. I was all for the pivot to Asia to contain China's maritime ambitions, back when we had a President and foreign policy team who could actually formulate coherent foreign policy. I'm all for countering China's foreign aid with our own and winning the hearts and minds of most of Africa which we could do for almost pennies instead of simply ignoring them, or worst deciding 'Murica First means cutting off all foreign aid and pissing on all our friends and allies. On the IP theft, I know a lot of folks that work in China who have cracked that nut, it's not terribly difficult if you go in prepared for it. It's also hard to argue we're better off with no China and no IP theft vs IP theft that goes to feed the China market. If you took draconian measures with respect to China Land Rover would sell zero cars there, so you really can't argue they'd be better off selling zero then where they are now.
I'm just saying the draconian measures listed, like demanding they destroy their nukes and actually being prepared to follow through to make them, leads to very bad things that leave us all worse off. In that case almost certainly nuclear war. Realpolitik doesn't mean the forces of light always prevail in complete victory over darkness. It means you're practical and get the best outcome possible given the situation, even if it does leave some lying and thieving going on.

I don't disagree at all that China does a lot of disagreeable stuff and it's a problem. I vehemently disagree that demanding they give up their nukes is the best way to address that problem.

 

[luisHK]

Imo that China might have not done yet as much harm as the US overseas is because of China´s lack of might during the last century, which is unfortunately changing fast. The CCP is as poisonous a regime as it comes, and the fact its huge population is deeply indoctrinated doesn´t help.

 

[ET180]

I don't think we disagree really. I was all for the pivot to Asia to contain China's maritime ambitions, back when we had a President and foreign policy team who could actually formulate coherent foreign policy. I'm all for countering China's foreign aid with our own and winning the hearts and minds of most of Africa which we could do for almost pennies instead of simply ignoring them, or worst deciding 'Murica First means cutting off all foreign aid and pissing on all our friends and allies. On the IP theft, I know a lot of folks that work in China who have cracked that nut, it's not terribly difficult if you go in prepared for it. It's also hard to argue we're better off with no China and no IP theft vs IP theft that goes to feed the China market. If you took draconian measures with respect to China Land Rover would sell zero cars there, so you really can't argue they'd be better off selling zero then where they are now.
I'm just saying the draconian measures listed, like demanding they destroy their nukes and actually being prepared to follow through to make them, leads to very bad things that leave us all worse off. In that case almost certainly nuclear war. Realpolitik doesn't mean the forces of light always prevail in complete victory over darkness. It means you're practical and get the best outcome possible given the situation, even if it does leave some lying and thieving going on.

I don't disagree at all that China does a lot of disagreeable stuff and it's a problem. I vehemently disagree that demanding they give up their nukes is the best way to address that problem.

I think we mostly agree. Oh, I forgot to mention forced IP transfer where companies basically have to hand over their tech in order to gain market access. Anyway, China will not give up their nukes and they won't pay a cent of reparations for the Wuhan Flu (even if we were able to prove that C19 came from the Wuhan Lab which I suspect it did). Beyond everything we have talked about here, I think there's a big supply chain issue with having our drugs and other vital supplies such as the masks mostly sourced from China. I think more thought will be given about bringing more manufacturing home. I think automation will help that happen. If automation can help bring down the labor costs, then shipping and logistic costs play a greater determining factor in the location of production.

 

[FrankInLa]

How will automation help America/Americans? American companies already repatriate their profits regardless of where they operate. Automation improves productivity. It does not help a single American worker, but rather harms workers worldwide, including American works.

But that aside, I agree there will be a rethink of how a country can be self-sufficient regarding emergency supplies rather than relying on a historically untrustworthy regime and country.

I think we mostly agree. Oh, I forgot to mention forced IP transfer where companies basically have to hand over their tech in order to gain market access. Anyway, China will not give up their nukes and they won't pay a cent of reparations for the Wuhan Flu (even if we were able to prove that C19 came from the Wuhan Lab which I suspect it did). Beyond everything we have talked about here, I think there's a big supply chain issue with having our drugs and other vital supplies such as the masks mostly sourced from China. I think more thought will be given about bringing more manufacturing home. I think automation will help that happen. If automation can help bring down the labor costs, then shipping and logistic costs play a greater determining factor in the location of production.

 

[ET180]

How will automation help America/Americans? American companies already repatriate their profits regardless of where they operate. Automation improves productivity. It does not help a single American worker, but rather harms workers worldwide, including American works.

But that aside, I agree there will be a rethink of how a country can be self-sufficient regarding emergency supplies rather than relying on a historically untrustworthy regime and country.

At least it keeps more money in the country. Those jobs will require some workers. Fewer people will be employed compared to the number of people offshore in China and certainly fewer than the number of people required to do the job in the distant past. But employing even 1 American worker is better than employing none. Employing 1 American worker is better than employing 10 workers whose wages go to support the CCP which is inherently anti-American.

 

[FrankInLa]

In the grand scheme of things an irrelevant drop in the bucket. I think the biggest lessons learnt after this pandemic will be an honest and hard look at why some other western country's Healthcare and dealing with this crisis worked out so much better and also why some other western countries (and Japan) could cope without hardly firing any workers while in the US corporations can fire and lay off whenever it pleases them. The cost to society is much higher doing it the current way than having stricter labor laws. But then of course our trickle down economics friends will tell us how that would prevent companies from hiring 8n the first place. Not a single of their arguments have ever been validated in real life. Japan has one of the toughest labor laws in the world and yet Toyota and Google or Nomura Securities don't have a single empty workstation/desk that is not manned by an employee. Plus Japan currently enjoys even lower unemployment than the US ever had. It's so incredibly upsetting to see people been put out of wages the moment it pleases the company just because it has done nothing in terms of building up reserves to keep their employees on payroll. That same money that should have been used for building up reserves has ended up in the pockets of the top 1% (= largest shareholders) while we now all have to burden our children with incomprehensible amounts of debt.

At least it keeps more money in the country. Those jobs will require some workers. Fewer people will be employed compared to the number of people offshore in China and certainly fewer than the number of people required to do the job in the distant past. But employing even 1 American worker is better than employing none. Employing 1 American worker is better than employing 10 workers whose wages go to support the CCP which is inherently anti-American.

 

[southall]

let's be honest, only us plebs die of pneumonia.

Seems Boris didn't get much in the way of medical checkups when he was in Downing street.

There was no dedicated medical team on hand.

Unlike the Queen, and the Presidents of other countries. Boris is a mere 'Prime Minster', not a head of state, and so has much lower status.

If something happens to the 'Prime Minister' they can be easily swapped with any regular Minister from the Cabinet.

 

[ET180]

Plus Japan currently enjoys even lower unemployment than the US ever had.

I have a lot of respect for the Japanese and their work ethic. But they are a dying country. Huge demographic problem. Also, compare the Nikkei 225 to the S&P since the early 90s. And the Nikkei 225 would be even worse if the BOJ had not been buying it over the past decade.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ying-pace-through-march-sources-idUSKBN20Y1Q9

It's so incredibly upsetting to see people been put out of wages the moment it pleases the company just because it has done nothing in terms of building up reserves to keep their employees on payroll. That same money that should have been used for building up reserves has ended up in the pockets of the top 1% (= largest shareholders) while we now all have to burden our children with incomprehensible amounts of debt.

Businesses don't exist to employ people. They exist to produce products and services for a profit. That profit is necessary to sustain the business, allow it to expand, and sustain it though hard times (I agree with your last point). Have you thanked Walmart recently for providing a job to 2.2 million of people? They go out of business, then those jobs are gone.