Convincing Atheist
- Thread starter dattaswami
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Atheists are of course completely logical.
The problem is the first premise upon which all the subsequent logical conclusions are derived.
Trusting in logic is not a bad thing, it is very practical.
Believing however that logic is the sole nature of the human existence, is a decision made by logic itself, by the intellect itself.
The intellect and logical mind was made for this world, this material world.
The heart was made for love.
The intellect divides, the heart unifies.
If someone wants to unify with this world, use the intellect.
If someone wants to unify with God, leave the intellect at the door and use the heart....
The problem is the first premise upon which all the subsequent logical conclusions are derived.
Trusting in logic is not a bad thing, it is very practical.
Believing however that logic is the sole nature of the human existence, is a decision made by logic itself, by the intellect itself.
The intellect and logical mind was made for this world, this material world.
The heart was made for love.
The intellect divides, the heart unifies.
If someone wants to unify with this world, use the intellect.
If someone wants to unify with God, leave the intellect at the door and use the heart....
Quote from William Rennick:
Atheists are the world's biggest fools.
Rennicks Top 10 Proof's there is a Creator.
1) Gravity, and all the other laws of nature that do not change
2) The Van Allen Belt
3) The ozone layer
4)Photosynthesis
5) spiders, beavers, wasps, migrating animals, and anything else that has built in instinct on how to survive
6) evil
7) Jesus Christ
8) The different languages, and Alphabets that came into exsistance at the same time.
9) Liz Claymen
10) The honest innocence of children
Rebuttal:
1. The scientific observation and measurement of gravity does not tend to make the existence of God more or less probable, because God, as an all powerful being, is capable of avoiding measurement entirely, capable of turning gravity on and off at will, and even capable of making all of us forget that gravity ever existed. Thus, this claim fails.
2. Ibidem for the Van Allen Belt.
3. Id at 1.
4. Id at 1.
5. Id at 1.
6. Evil cannot be measured because it is subject to the the personal opinion of the observer as to the quantity and quality of the evil under observation. If one measures evil based on their "belief" in the inerrancy of a particular theological view, then without proof of the accuracy of that view, then the measuring tool is simply speculative as to its accuracy. Thus, this claim fails.
7. Jesus of Nazareth was a natural being, born of a natural mother. Whether he was born of a supernatural father is speculation, because there is no way to verify that the immaculate conception occurred. Even if there were a way to verify that Mary conceived a child without the sperm of any natural human male, there is no way to prove that Mary's egg did not begin cell division due to a random strike of radiation or some other natural occurrence. Nor is it possible to prove that the natural occurrence was not initiated by a supernatural force.
If such proof were possible, and the supernatural force could be proven by natural measuring devices, then the force would cease to be supernatural, because once we can measure something, we can understand its components and operation, reproduce the same conditions and become equal to God. Thus, this claim fails.
8. The statement that different languages came into existence at the same time is an unsupported conclusion. Language historians believe that all modern languages are a derivation of an Indo-European Proto-language, and that the modern languages evolved via the geographic isolation and migration of those who originally spoke it. Thus, this claim fails.
9. Your interest in Liz Clayman is logically relevant to help prove that you are human and that you feel human emotions. There is no evidence to support that Ms. Clayman is more or less likely the work of a supernatural entity. In fact, Liz's rather ordinary looking nose, suggests that she is more likely the product of random mutation and natural selection -- although I would concede that it is completely possible, yet unprovable, that God is responsible for evolutionary process which may have caused Ms. Clayman's existence.
10. Rebutting this claim is analogous to rebuttal #6, above. Innocence is no more measurable than is evil or any other human value system. All such measurements rely on the accuracy of some external belief which itself is unprovable. Thus, this claim fails.
Conclusion.
Your top 10 proofs fail to add any weight to the argument for or against the claim that atheists are the world's biggest fools. Thus, your claim fails.
This argument does not prove the existence or nonexistence of God. The odds remain 50/50 no matter what proof is offerred, because "odds" are a mathematical construct of the natural universe and do not apply to the supernatural universe. This is true, because God, if he/she/it exists, can dispense with the "odds" at will or change them.
In your example, suppose that the blind man deviated from his course, but the person who advised him to deviate was God, and that the man was directed to fall into the hole? Suppose, there were two holes and the second one was even deeper than the one avoided? Suppose that the man misunderstood the directions of the two men? Suppose that the two men were actually only one, pretending to be two? Suppose that the man only dreamed of the encounter?
The possibilities are limitless. God's existence or not existence cannot be measured except by God. That is what makes God, God.
I suggest that it is better to try to live your life the best way you can and let God judge you by your works, and not your beliefs, if and when the time comes for you to be judged.
Who knows, maybe God will decide that the odds should be 100% in favor of forgiveness. You will only know God's decision when your time comes. Until then, it's all just a crap shoot.
Buy low -- sell high.
The Lord is universal but the human beings in the universe differ in their attitudes. The same single Lord adopts a different procedure in a different region and such a different procedure appears as a different religion. A few people criticize the Lord of other religions. You do not criticize the Lord of your own religion. The external behavior of the Lord differs due to different internal and external behaviors of the human beings in this universe.
The external form, dress, language, food habits and culture of human beings differ from one region to the other. Accordingly the external form, dress, food habits, language and culture of the Lord also differ to suit that particular region. The internal Lord and the internal essence of the same Lord is one and the same in His different human incarnations which have come in different regions or religions.
The external form, dress, language, food habits and culture of human beings differ from one region to the other. Accordingly the external form, dress, food habits, language and culture of the Lord also differ to suit that particular region. The internal Lord and the internal essence of the same Lord is one and the same in His different human incarnations which have come in different regions or religions.
Chief Gray Cloud: [in reference to Avram's god] What does he do?
Avram: He... He can do anything!
Chief Gray Cloud: Then why can't he make rain?
Avram: Because he doesn't make rain. He gives us strength when we're suffering. He gives us compassion when all that we feel is hatred. He gives us courage when we're searching around blindly like little mice in the darkness... but He does not make rain!
[Thunder and lightning begin, followed by a downpour]
Avram: Of course... sometimes, just like that, he'll change His mind.
Excerpt from "The Frisco Kid," Robert Aldrich, Director (1979)
kjkent1:
A devotee said that God has all the good qualities only and they are called Sattvam (knowledge, goodness). There should not be Rajas (activity, passion) and Tamas (ignorance, rigidity) in His qualities since they constitute bad qualities.
The answer for this doubt is that you should not say that God is associated with good qualities. You should say that whatever quality is associated with God is good. Any quality directed towards God is good and any quality which is directed towards the creation (world) is bad.
Sattvam is knowledge. Rajas is work. Tamas is rigid determination.
The knowledge of an atheist which opposes the existence of God is a bad quality even though it is sattvam. The work done by a devotee in the divine service (Rajas) and his rigid determination or faith in God (Tamas), are good qualities. The very process of knowledge is the work of the mind and thus knowledge itself is basically Rajas. When you believe your knowledge to be true, such belief is Tamas.
Thus you cannot separate the three qualities in their pure states. The scriptures (Shastras) say this. The three qualities are always in the state of an inseparable equilibrium when the pure awareness (Mula Prakriti or Holy Spirit) was created by God. When the equilibrium is disturbed, one of these three qualities predominates and we call it by the name of the predominant quality.
The spiritual effort to attain and please God must contain all the three qualities. The quality is neither in God nor is God is in the quality. Any quality must be associated with God alone for its very existence.
Any quality is created, maintained and is destroyed by God alone. Creating is said to be Rajas. Maintenance is Sattvam. Destruction is Tamas. This entire universe, which is the asylum for all the qualities is created and maintained by God.
In such a case how can you say that God is associated only with some qualities and not with some other qualities? Nothing can exist without His association. He is beyond this universe and therefore He is beyond all the qualities. He uses all the three qualities for His divine play.
Your question takes as axiomatic that God exists as a certainty. However, certainty in this universe is defined onle by what is and is not measurable by natural means.
God is not measurable by any device of this universe, because God is supernatural and can change the universe itself at any instant so as to avoid any attempt at measurement. If this were not so, then we could measure God, and once measured, we could learn the essence of God, and then overthrow God, who would have by definition, become a natural part of our universe, by being measured by natural means.
What is left, then is belief, otherwise known as faith. You can only believe that God is, if God is to remain God -- a supernatural being beyond the reach of any possible understanding. The moment that you know God for a certainty, either God has become part of the natural universe, or you have become supernatural.
The words of your spiritual leader are only words. Though he may speak to you with extraordinary wisdom, he cannot possibly know the mind of God, because at the instant he obtains such absolute knowledge, that knowledge would dethrone God as almighty. Someone else would have the "knowledge" of God.
Be happy in your beliefs, but do not presume to know God, and do not let anyone else tell you that they do. They cannot -- unless they are God.