Consistently Profitable Traders - Going Red to Black

[talontrading]

thanks. semi-vacation this month. august and end of year tend to be hard trading for me so i try to actually get out of the office a bit.

as for list of personality traits, this is something i have given a lot of though. the key personality trait for traders (imo) i'm convinced is the very unnatural ability to make a decision with very little information very quicky, and to act on that decision with complete conviction. now, that alone is not remarkable (in fact, it is one pretty good plan for "how to be an idiot"), but the second part is very rare: a willingness to admit you were wrong 2 seconds after being completely convinced you were right. the normal human pattern is to build arguments and defend them... to be so quick to step back and say you're wrong is really unnatural.

so that paragraph covers the standard list of: quick to process information, good at making decisions under pressure, able to take significant risk, and extreme flexibility. the last part of that is probably the most important, and may be why i have seen better overall results with women than men. i have seen aggressive type-a male traders beat their heads against a wall being long a stock... buying more... selling some, buying back lower... meanwhile the woman is either flat or short. this is an extreme generalization, but the type-a personality is far overrated.

i do not find finance, accounting or engineering backgrounds to be that useful frankly. these are people who usually expect logic to work and for things to "make sense". (for the record, i have a formal finance background.) well, they often don't make sense. i prefer varied and often artistic backgrounds. my most recent hire came from a fashion background and literally did not know what a bid or offer was when she started.

the one common thread i have seen is that successful traders tend to be, overall, optimistic and they simple don't quit. this isn't to say you can't be discouraged. i have seen people quit several times, but come back to it and eventually make it.


and yes, that's the book.

(sorry i answered like 4 posts in this one!)

Quote from bs2167:


Talon- Good to see you around...hope everything is going well.

 

[NoDoji]

Quote from talontrading:

as for list of personality traits, this is something i have given a lot of though. the key personality trait for traders (imo) i'm convinced is the very unnatural ability to make a decision with very little information very quicky, and to act on that decision with complete conviction. now, that alone is not remarkable (in fact, it is one pretty good plan for "how to be an idiot"), but the second part is very rare: a willingness to admit you were wrong 2 seconds after being completely convinced you were right. the normal human pattern is to build arguments and defend them... to be so quick to step back and say you're wrong is really unnatural.

Talon, you've nailed it here. People are programmed from early childhood to be right. Take tests at school and the more you're right, the better your grades, the better your grades, the more praise, toys, money, ice cream, whatever, you end up getting. If you're really good at being right all the time, you eventually get scholarships, earn higher degrees and become a doctor, a lawyer, an engineers, a career where being right as often as possible is really, really important to our success and to our egos.

Then at some point you hear the markets calling and decide to learn to trade. All of a sudden you're doing something where being wrong can be a daily occurrence, and it's very important to admit when you're wrong, and be flexible enough to dump your team and run over to the other team without a second thought.

To be a successful trader, you have to learn how to do things every day that run counter to years of programming.

It's no wonder there's such a high failure rate.

 

[deadbroke]

Quote from NoDoji:

Talon, you've nailed it here. People are programmed from early childhood to be right. Take tests at school and the more you're right, the better your grades, the better your grades, the more praise, toys, money, ice cream, whatever, you end up getting. If you're really good at being right all the time, you eventually get scholarships, earn higher degrees and become a doctor, a lawyer, an engineers, a career where being right as often as possible is really, really important to our success and to our egos.

And then we throw it all away by getting married!

 

[MarkRyan]

Quote from DEM BONES:

What would you say was your single most important realization or action that put you over the top to become a consistently profitable trader?

Trade less Go for bigger targets.

 

[elit5314]

Quote from talontrading:

I realized that I had all the knowledge I needed and getting more knowledge was not the answer. With that off the table, I was left to figure out what the problem was, which was that my own behavior was inconsistent. Then I set myself to basically becoming a (discretionary) robot and just simply doing what I knew was the right thing.

It was not a flash-of-lighting inspiration moment, but a slow realization. Much more of a process than an event.

this is a beautiful statement talontrading

to op:

if u have a set up that works the only thing u have to do is utilize that setup over and over. this is considered skill. so if you remain skillful you get paid and if you get sloppy you pay.

 

[LeeD]

Quote from talontrading:

as for list of personality traits, this is something i have given a lot of though. the key personality trait for traders (imo) i'm convinced is the very unnatural ability to make a decision with very little information very quicky, and to act on that decision with complete conviction. now, that alone is not remarkable (in fact, it is one pretty good plan for "how to be an idiot"), but the second part is very rare: a willingness to admit you were wrong 2 seconds after being completely convinced you were right. the normal human pattern is to build arguments and defend them... to be so quick to step back and say you're wrong is really unnatural.

It's interesting that you say "with complete conviction". A few "veteran" traders, as well as the book Trading in the Zone, advocate a view that having conviction about the direction of the price movement is not the way to go. Instead a trader should enter what he/she know is a good setup and just see if it has worked. If there is no conviction, no mental flexivbility is required to change it and there is no "being wrong" if the trade doesn't work as expected.

 

[TSGannGalt]

Talon says

"I realized that I had all the knowledge I needed."

MOST people don't reach this point. Only the people who's done IT can say this. Based on your previous posts...

It's kinda funny you find it a "beautiful statement"

Quote from elit5314:

this is a beautiful statement talontrading

to op:

if u have a set up that works the only thing u have to do is utilize that setup over and over. this is considered skill. so if you remain skillful you get paid and if you get sloppy you pay.

 

[TSGannGalt]

Like I mentioned on the previous post...

Mentality and Psycho-babble only relates to the ones who has done their ground work.

Hey... I can brainwash myself (actually bring myself to go into "Zen" / "Zone") and/or bring my trading mentality to Basketball or Golf but I'm far from actually performing like Tiger Woods or MJ. (I've never practiced or taken time to get better... but hey... if I can think like Mike, I can play like Mike???)

Most of you guys find some soothing statement that relates to your lack of skills / knowledge / experience and take things over board.

Read back some of talon's post with Bowo. His knowledge/skills/experience is above most of you self-compromisers.

talon.... I know it's your (imo) but you need provide them with some background before you start mentioning a conclusion. Most of the ET newbs and wanna-bes are very sheeple/single minded.... Hey, both of our approaches differs "beyond the basics" but the "basics"/"basis" are a "basis".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike... you've gotta come in and straighten some shit out. These retarded monkeys in ET are missing the whole fuckin' point about models and systems in fuckin' general!!!! Even more, they have no fuckin' idea about being fuckin' synical and beinga skeptic!!! I call that shit a fuckin' loser. It's like reading some shit on some magazine and believing it to be true without testing and confirming it on their own... or taking a single dataset and concluding that shit don't work... filled by selection.... and a bunch of other biases/pitfalls. (I think that's enough profanity on 1 post... Seriously, don't give a fuck about your language. People who can grasp the context of the post, understands regardless of the tone or profanity included... People who care about those things are generally biased/blinded by their fuckin' impression and emotions... like their comfort zone/distance/conditions)

Anyways... relating to someone else's post is BS. Read the fuckin' context. (not saying talon's post is bad... the replies keep on degrading the post he's made.)

Quote from LeeD:

It's interesting that you say "with complete conviction". A few "veteran" traders, as well as the book Trading in the Zone, advocate a view that having conviction about the direction of the price movement is not the way to go. Instead a trader should enter what he/she know is a good setup and just see if it has worked. If there is no conviction, no mental flexivbility is required to change it and there is no "being wrong" if the trade doesn't work as expected.

 

[LeeD]

Quote from TSGannGalt:

Mentality and Psycho-babble only relates to the ones who has done their ground work.

Hey... I can brainwash myself (actually bring myself to go into "Zen" / "Zone") and/or bring my trading mentality to Basketball or Golf but I'm far from actually performing like Tiger Woods or MJ.

However, if you are exceedingly nervous every time you are about to hit the ball (maybe to the point that your hands and legs are shaking), it will likely serriously affect you performace and won't let you achieve your full potential at the game. If you recognise you are not gonna be as good as Tiger Woods it shouldn't necessarily stop self-improvement.

Similarly, discipline is a key element in success at trading and is a psychological issue. So, discussion regarding developing discipline and the right attitude has its rightful place on the trading boards.

Quote from TSGannGalt:

People who can grasp the context of the post, understands regardless of the tone or profanity included... People who care about those things are generally biased/blinded by their fuckin' impression and emotions... like their comfort zone/distance/conditions)

I don't think that profanity is always necessary to make a point but sometimes it is helpful.

Quote from TSGannGalt:

Anyways... relating to someone else's post is BS. Read the fuckin' context. (not saying talon's post is bad... the replies keep on degrading the post he's made.)

I hold high regard for Talon's opinion based on his posts elsewhere on this board. I spotted something in his post that seemed to disagree with what I consider "common knowledge". There are often a few ways to look at the same problem and it's not always the case that there is only one "correct" view or that the most common view is the best one or even that different views are contradictory. So, I consider asking for clarification as an opportunity to learn something.

 

[elit5314]

Quote from TSGannGalt:

Talon says

"I realized that I had all the knowledge I needed."

MOST people don't reach this point. Only the people who's done IT can say this. Based on your previous posts...

It's kinda funny you find it a "beautiful statement"

imagine the last scene of the movie!!!!!

the struggling hero in his quest to find the right path had been walking for miles now arrives at the crossroads; stops and thinks for a moment which way to go.

he decides to take the left turn (instead of his habit of taking right turns) which turns out to be the correct choice.

and this is the part i find beautiful; finally making that turn that brings you to your destination. cheers