You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Consistently Profitable Traders - Going Red to Black
- Thread starter DEM BONES
- Start date
Quote from intradaybill:
cannot be taught if you do not have it inside you. You either have it in you or you do not. Do not fight it. Trading consistently is NOT a science. It is a gift from nature.
Interesting, your belief in fatalism, predetermination of trading success is very strong. May I ask what supporting evidence do you have to support this? Don't take it personally but you seem to be suggesting, that you are natures gift to trading.
Quote from intradaybill:
Trading consistently is a talent, like being a singer, a painter, an olympic athlete. It cannot be taught, like winning a 100 metter race cannot be taught if you do not have it inside you.
You're 100% wrong.
With your logic you're either born to be an engineer or you're not. You can't learn how to become a successful engineer? Your logic, or lack thereof, makes no sense. People learn by doing, observing and studying. And whether your goal is to become an engineer, which takes certain skills, or a trader, one can learn to succeed at either endeavor. I know -- I've been both an engineer (15 years) and a trader, the past 15 years, successful in both. Just as I was not a profitable trader from day one I was not a top notch engineer from my first day on the job. We all make mistakes along the way in our careers -- and those who ultimately enjoy success, learn from their mistakes.
You either have it or you do not. Face the truth guys. Do not fight reality. I am not saying you do not have it. Maybe you do. Please do not get so sensitive. Trading is a talent. No talent can be taught. Enginnering is not a talent. Architecture is a talent. You cannot become a medical doctor by forcing that on yourself. Becoming a good doctor is based on talent. If you are afraid of heights you cannot become a pilot. If you are afraid of losing money you cannot become a trader. If you do not have a good voice you cannot become a singer. What makes you think that trading is any different? It is not. You either have it or you do not. Maybe all of you have it. I am not attacking any of you. I am just asserting based on long experience that trading is a talent. I have seen hundreds of people who tried to learn it but they could not, failure after failure, and just a few became successful right from the start. they had it. It is simple. That does not mean someone should not work on their talent. But if they lack any of it, it is an excersize in futility.
There are people who are better equipped to trade than others, and I would say that most people do not have the skills to trade well. I do not believe that ANYONE can learn to trade, and frankly most of the people that could learn to trade probably shouldn't.
Having said that, I have trained over a dozen people to trade. 10 of them are still trading and run the gamut from trading their own fairly small accounts to working for large funds to running their own funds. In hiring prospective trainees, I actually avoid people who show the classic business-school aggressiveness, and found after several years of doing this that I was seeing a higher success rate with women than men. I find flexibility is more important than macho-intraday-bill's testosterone level. Simply, women tend to be less stubborn and have an easier time admitting they are wrong than men do. That is a gross oversimplification, but I do think if trading boils down to one quality that's it. The ability to act with complete confidence on your option (which does imply a certain degree of aggression), but also the ability to admit you were wrong 10 seconds or 2 days later, depending on your timeframe.
And, before the objections start, my experiences training cover virtually every market, instrument and timeframe. Certain personalities tend to cluster in certain kinds of trading (which makes sense), but overall that strange mix of confidence with flexibility is the key.
I have seen more dramatic crash and burn scenarios with ultra-aggressive testosterone driven guys like Bill claims to be than anyone else. Guys that have been in the business 10+ years do not tend to have this mentality (in general).
My post is full of gross oversimplifications, but the bottom line is that I have good experience that absolutely proves beyond a doubt that trading CAN be taught to people with a wide range of backgrounds and personalities. Sorry IntradayBill, but I bet my sample size is a bit bigger than yours.
Having said that, I have trained over a dozen people to trade. 10 of them are still trading and run the gamut from trading their own fairly small accounts to working for large funds to running their own funds. In hiring prospective trainees, I actually avoid people who show the classic business-school aggressiveness, and found after several years of doing this that I was seeing a higher success rate with women than men. I find flexibility is more important than macho-intraday-bill's testosterone level. Simply, women tend to be less stubborn and have an easier time admitting they are wrong than men do. That is a gross oversimplification, but I do think if trading boils down to one quality that's it. The ability to act with complete confidence on your option (which does imply a certain degree of aggression), but also the ability to admit you were wrong 10 seconds or 2 days later, depending on your timeframe.
And, before the objections start, my experiences training cover virtually every market, instrument and timeframe. Certain personalities tend to cluster in certain kinds of trading (which makes sense), but overall that strange mix of confidence with flexibility is the key.
I have seen more dramatic crash and burn scenarios with ultra-aggressive testosterone driven guys like Bill claims to be than anyone else. Guys that have been in the business 10+ years do not tend to have this mentality (in general).
My post is full of gross oversimplifications, but the bottom line is that I have good experience that absolutely proves beyond a doubt that trading CAN be taught to people with a wide range of backgrounds and personalities. Sorry IntradayBill, but I bet my sample size is a bit bigger than yours.
Quote from intradaybill:
You either have it or you do not. Face the truth guys. Do not fight reality. I am not saying you do not have it. Maybe you do. Please do not get so sensitive. Trading is a talent. No talent can be taught. Enginnering is not a talent. Architecture is a talent. You cannot become a medical doctor by forcing that on yourself. Becoming a good doctor is based on talent. If you are afraid of heights you cannot become a pilot. If you are afraid of losing money you cannot become a trader. If you do not have a good voice you cannot become a singer. What makes you think that trading is any different? It is not. You either have it or you do not. Maybe all of you have it. I am not attacking any of you. I am just asserting based on long experience that trading is a talent. I have seen hundreds of people who tried to learn it but they could not, failure after failure, and just a few became successful right from the start. they had it. It is simple. That does not mean someone should not work on their talent. But if they lack any of it, it is an excersize in futility.
Quote from intradaybill:
You either have it or you do not. Face the truth guys. Do not fight reality. I am not saying you do not have it. Maybe you do. Please do not get so sensitive. Trading is a talent. No talent can be taught. Enginnering is not a talent. Architecture is a talent. You cannot become a medical doctor by forcing that on yourself. Becoming a good doctor is based on talent. If you are afraid of heights you cannot become a pilot. If you are afraid of losing money you cannot become a trader. If you do not have a good voice you cannot become a singer. What makes you think that trading is any different? It is not. You either have it or you do not. Maybe all of you have it. I am not attacking any of you. I am just asserting based on long experience that trading is a talent. I have seen hundreds of people who tried to learn it but they could not, failure after failure, and just a few became successful right from the start. they had it. It is simple. That does not mean someone should not work on their talent. But if they lack any of it, it is an excersize in futility.
Once again you've posted factually incorrect info, which is merely your opinion.
Engineering is not a talent but architecture is? Uhhh, do you know what a civil engineer does? A civil engineer is very much focused on the design (and construction) of buildings, bridges, etc. And an architect is also focused on design of buildings. So why is one a talent and the other not (in your opinion)? Both are occupations that can be, and are, learned through education and practice.
Just because you've seen people fail at trading does NOT mean all people fall into that grouping. I've traded in an office and I too saw many fail. I also saw a number of them succeed, each with different approaches to trading (scalping, swing, momentum, ....). And each learned through practice, trial and error, taking losses --- growing over time.
Something my Dad told me years ago -- "there's no such word as 'can't'". If I listened to your mindset I'd have not pursued trading and not realized success in a career I did choose to pursue after I'd accomplished what I desired in my prior profession.
Quote from DHOHHI:
Once again you've posted factually incorrect info, which is merely your opinion.
Same holds for you. It is only your opinion.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/talent
Quote from intradaybill:
You either have it or you do not. Face the truth guys. Do not fight reality. I am not saying you do not have it. Maybe you do. Please do not get so sensitive. Trading is a talent. No talent can be taught. Enginnering is not a talent. Architecture is a talent. You cannot become a medical doctor by forcing that on yourself. Becoming a good doctor is based on talent. ...
Bill, in reading your posts over the years I'm convinced you've developed some serious misconceptions (strong beliefs) that you need to reconsider. I also believe that many of your beliefs are based off of ignorance, unfortunately.
I'm not sure how old you are, but, unless you start to let go of some of these beliefs soon, success, both personal and professional will evade you.
I used to be an engineer. It is very much a talent. Some people have it, they can solve problems and see solutions in a matter of minutes rather than days... There are also plenty of engineers as there are plenty of traders with no talent who do just fine and make a good career out of it.
Trading is a mathematical expectancy exercise combined with emotional self control. Most people do not understand the math and most people have poor self control.
Talent in trading comes from a very good read on the market, however, talent has nothing to do with PnL IMO - PnL can be engineered through research and creative/analytical thinking.
Did you understand that? Talent, just like in your architecture reference is developed from practice and effort. Trading PnL is created from practice and effort. Solving engineering problems correctly is done with practice and effort. Talents are developed...
Since you seem to hold your beliefs so tightly, you'll likely ignore most of what is being said here, but, all the professions you refer to require substantial training, education and practice. Trading being no different. Trading does have the pre-requisite of self-control and will power. That's the trick bill, self control and will power.
Anyway, back to your posts here. I do not believe you have a professional background, nor an advanced education at this point. If you did, you'd be constructing arguments based on real-world examples and actual experience in a professional environment - both of which I have. My experiences, as well as that of the professionals I know in this business, do not match your experiences even in the slightest.
Quote from coolweb:
when u say traders are born, u are probably refering to the tenacity of the person, It is more like a person with high testesrone excell not only in TRADING but everything else in life such as SPORTS, business, kicking others peoples ass.
A person born with high testerrone, he'll get everything ",manly" right
while a person with low testersrone, will be less agressive, timid, take less trades, afraid to speak up, not lead a company. The few successful millaionaires I do know, including myself , are not only good in business ,but women, sports ,everything.
quite frankly, anybody with high testerone will beat your low/mediocre testerones ass by far because I am much more aggressive.
reading my post u can feel the testosterone, its like someone high on steroids but its completely natural . I'm speaking it from a "matter of fact" attitude, with no aggression at all. For a low testosterone person to speak like this, would be unlikely unless he was insulted or angered.
Perhaps a millionaire like yourself should hire someone to spell-check for you. You have misspelled "testosterone" in five different ways in the same short post.
Maybe a side effect of having high testosterone.
Mike805,
I have no educational background, you are right. Whatever you say. But you were a bad engineer that is why you were either fired or quit and started trading. Face the truth. Trading is full of failed loser engineers and incompetent programmers that never made it in their fields. You are maybe one of them. I have worked in investments banks and trading floors. You have not even passed the door of one of them to see what real traders do. I feel sorry about you because you rush to judge people. Only people of limited intellectual capacity judge people they have never met. You are pathetic Mike805. You need to consult a psychiatrist, not even a psychologist, for believing you have the power to know over the web who is educated and who is not.
I only made an argument that trading is talent. Many I know agree. Some attacked me personally, even reached to the point to claim I am not educated. I feel sorry about you guys. You need to seek help, seriiously.
Mike805 on ignore along with the other idiots who have never traded but want to teach people how to.
I have no educational background, you are right. Whatever you say. But you were a bad engineer that is why you were either fired or quit and started trading. Face the truth. Trading is full of failed loser engineers and incompetent programmers that never made it in their fields. You are maybe one of them. I have worked in investments banks and trading floors. You have not even passed the door of one of them to see what real traders do. I feel sorry about you because you rush to judge people. Only people of limited intellectual capacity judge people they have never met. You are pathetic Mike805. You need to consult a psychiatrist, not even a psychologist, for believing you have the power to know over the web who is educated and who is not.
I only made an argument that trading is talent. Many I know agree. Some attacked me personally, even reached to the point to claim I am not educated. I feel sorry about you guys. You need to seek help, seriiously.
Mike805 on ignore along with the other idiots who have never traded but want to teach people how to.