This makes alot of sense. Are you sure the word "prop" goes along with what these guys do? Sounds like a MM firm (most likely options) that doesn't require you to put up any money. The options will be a little slower to move to the screen. It really depends on where you want to go w/your life. I work for a MM in Chicago and I have a good guess as to where the job offer is coming from. The MM firms that are hiring right now must be doing something right considering there are alot of layoffs going on in the industry. Consider the size of the firm and how quickly you think you can move up. Where I work you are judged and paid by how quickly you learn and move up. Ive seen guys come in and make trader in less that 1 year. (and that generally means some nice $) You have to really want it but it can be done. Anyway, good luck...you will make the right choice. jim [/B][/QUOTE]
Considering an offer from a top prop firm in Chicago...future as a trader?
- Thread starter am617
- Start date
I agree with jim c. Some of the people on this thread think you're talking about a typical shop, not a real MM firm.
It's just a question of what you want to do, trade or consult. There's nothing wrong with either one; it just depends on you.
Trust me. You can do very well at a good MM firm.
It's just a question of what you want to do, trade or consult. There's nothing wrong with either one; it just depends on you.
Trust me. You can do very well at a good MM firm.
Being a prop firm (capital provided by the firm) trader for a while in Chicago. You're always left in a void. Basically, you have to be flipping and flopping firms moving to the next hot firm.
There's always a firm that is doing well but there's always a limit to the number of traders in the office. If there's no space, you're left with trading without a strong edge that the firm provided. You're always fighting to work for a spot in a top prop. firm.
At one time, the floor ruled Chicago. Then came arbitrage. The electronic market became liquid and accessible so with the internet bubble, the momo-style ruled Chicago. Then it became Greeks arb. and scalping. Now it's MM (Rebate included in this... but I don't hear about them so much...). There's always a trend of the trading style/firms, of what is hot. All the top scalping firms and traders are losing their jobs right now.
I've met many prop. traders quitting because they couldn't keep up to the pace. Starting up as a trader is fine. They tell you what to do and you act as a discretionary trade desk. You make loads of money for your age, chicks, drugs, partying, and etc. makes it all seemingly worthwhile.
Still, you haven't accumulated enough skills to survive on your own. You'll end up depending on firms to provide you with some edge and make money. Going around and around in circles.
I'm not against someone becoming a trader. I think it's a great job and I love it. But it's equally important to prepare yourself for your next step, while you have the time.
From what it looks like, I'm thinking Forex (with CME's FXMarketSpace) to be big next (Unless they try to bring back OneChicago)... I would start studying these if I were you. And another issue skill you should have is the knowledge of automated trading. Automated trading costs less to implement than having a human trader at the office and the risks are quantified.
Always be prepared for what may be next. It may not happen but at least you're learning new stuff, which is never a waste of time.
As for me??? I went from: Prop trader > Contract system developer > IB's internal hedge fund > My own fund.
If I didn't take my step to learn programming, I'll prolly be stuck trying to scalp DAX/Bunds/Bobl and getting fired...
There's always a firm that is doing well but there's always a limit to the number of traders in the office. If there's no space, you're left with trading without a strong edge that the firm provided. You're always fighting to work for a spot in a top prop. firm.
At one time, the floor ruled Chicago. Then came arbitrage. The electronic market became liquid and accessible so with the internet bubble, the momo-style ruled Chicago. Then it became Greeks arb. and scalping. Now it's MM (Rebate included in this... but I don't hear about them so much...). There's always a trend of the trading style/firms, of what is hot. All the top scalping firms and traders are losing their jobs right now.
I've met many prop. traders quitting because they couldn't keep up to the pace. Starting up as a trader is fine. They tell you what to do and you act as a discretionary trade desk. You make loads of money for your age, chicks, drugs, partying, and etc. makes it all seemingly worthwhile.
Still, you haven't accumulated enough skills to survive on your own. You'll end up depending on firms to provide you with some edge and make money. Going around and around in circles.
I'm not against someone becoming a trader. I think it's a great job and I love it. But it's equally important to prepare yourself for your next step, while you have the time.
From what it looks like, I'm thinking Forex (with CME's FXMarketSpace) to be big next (Unless they try to bring back OneChicago)... I would start studying these if I were you. And another issue skill you should have is the knowledge of automated trading. Automated trading costs less to implement than having a human trader at the office and the risks are quantified.
Always be prepared for what may be next. It may not happen but at least you're learning new stuff, which is never a waste of time.
As for me??? I went from: Prop trader > Contract system developer > IB's internal hedge fund > My own fund.
If I didn't take my step to learn programming, I'll prolly be stuck trying to scalp DAX/Bunds/Bobl and getting fired...
I recently left prop trading myself and am embarking on a similar path.
What kind of time frame spanned that transition for you?
am617,
I was in your exact same shoes 5 years ago. My lifelong passion is trading, except my job hunting season coincided with 9/11, so there weren't many trading jobs open. GS flew me to nyc twice for a few rounds of interviews, but ultimately their desk was only hiring for 2 positions and I imagine they went to Ivies (I was from a mid-tier). Props were closing up left and right so that wasn't really an option at the time.
I ultimately went with a consulting job for one of the Big Four. Overall I don't regret the decision, it was a great experience, you build a great network, and it opened a lot of doors. The only downside, no matter how removed you are from audit/accounting in the consulting space, in the eyes of any other firm, they see a Big Four on your resume and they instantly equate you with accounting. It's difficult not to get pigeon holed with the stigma of being an accountant, regardless of your title or the "consulting" work you actually performed.
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend going the Big Four route and hoping you can still trade on the side. You will lose focus trying to do both, which is ultimately detrimental to everything. Your internet usage at the firm and clients will be closely watched as well.
2.5 years later, I jumped to a client that offered 100k + full grad school (difficult to pass up at 25..), unfortunately it was the wrong field and the company went south before I could even start applying. Now I'm finally at a hedge fund, though on the ground floor doing backoffice accounting.. A good friend started at that level too and was able to transition to the buy-side (lucky), I imagine I'll need an MBA/MFE/CFA to make a similar leap in today's market. In the end, it would've made more sense to have done this immediately out of college 4 years ago.
Long story short, if trading is indeed your passion, don't do what I did.
Yes the Big Four job is the path of least resistance, good experience on your resume,decent salary, good entry to B-school, etc etc. but when you're sitting in a cube buried in Excel for 12 hours a day (which is 99% of what you'll be doing).. you'll wish you'd have gone prop.
I was in your exact same shoes 5 years ago. My lifelong passion is trading, except my job hunting season coincided with 9/11, so there weren't many trading jobs open. GS flew me to nyc twice for a few rounds of interviews, but ultimately their desk was only hiring for 2 positions and I imagine they went to Ivies (I was from a mid-tier). Props were closing up left and right so that wasn't really an option at the time.
I ultimately went with a consulting job for one of the Big Four. Overall I don't regret the decision, it was a great experience, you build a great network, and it opened a lot of doors. The only downside, no matter how removed you are from audit/accounting in the consulting space, in the eyes of any other firm, they see a Big Four on your resume and they instantly equate you with accounting. It's difficult not to get pigeon holed with the stigma of being an accountant, regardless of your title or the "consulting" work you actually performed.
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend going the Big Four route and hoping you can still trade on the side. You will lose focus trying to do both, which is ultimately detrimental to everything. Your internet usage at the firm and clients will be closely watched as well.
2.5 years later, I jumped to a client that offered 100k + full grad school (difficult to pass up at 25..), unfortunately it was the wrong field and the company went south before I could even start applying. Now I'm finally at a hedge fund, though on the ground floor doing backoffice accounting.. A good friend started at that level too and was able to transition to the buy-side (lucky), I imagine I'll need an MBA/MFE/CFA to make a similar leap in today's market. In the end, it would've made more sense to have done this immediately out of college 4 years ago.
Long story short, if trading is indeed your passion, don't do what I did.
Yes the Big Four job is the path of least resistance, good experience on your resume,decent salary, good entry to B-school, etc etc. but when you're sitting in a cube buried in Excel for 12 hours a day (which is 99% of what you'll be doing).. you'll wish you'd have gone prop.I've got a few PMs from current prop. traders with the same worries. I am really not sure if it helps I'll go ahead and write what it took to get out of prop. and into my own hedge fund.
Well, the main cause of changing careers started with myself talking to old school floor traders. They kept on telling me that the industry is constantly changing. 99% of the business is about survival and going through a series of "metamorphism" (LOL... it was a best selling novel with the same kinda title at the time).
I was already seeing prop. firms changing at that time. The firm's style was losing edge and traders in and out of the firm with same style was feeling pressure. Everyone was hoping markets will be back to "normal" where it'll start working again, as it used to. As I mentioned above, I've been through multiple firms and a lot of us started looking for either lower commission (as usual) or new and successful firms.
I got tired of "The Loop" and because I had some background in Tradestation 4.0, I decided to take risk and do things on my own stopping the stress I had at the moment.
So I left prop. to become a freelance contract system developer, my source of income stopped. I've had some money saved up but when I decided to focus on doing things on my own, I didn't know how long it would take to get my stream of income back.
To stop my bank account from bleeding too fast, I decided to take a night job as a chef in a suhi bar. (Sushi Samba Rio, Kaze Sushi then Fulton's on the River... ask some people there about "Take-san the tall Asian sushi chef"... some old school employees will know me) During the day, I was out meeting contacts and developing models to get my financial career forward.
First thing I did was develop models using Tradestation and Wealth-Lab. So I develop a scalping system. It was back when the terms "High Frequency Trading" and "Algorithmic Trading" didn't exist but I made a fairly good "Scalping system". The problem was, I had a model but I didn't have the skills to implement them. So was forced to learn High-Level Programming to automate the style.
So I learn C# and another problem arose, I started testing the prior model in a better testing environment and it didn't work. I was testing the model in a very naive condition. So end up learning risk management and quantitative stuff. While learning all these things, I continued to improve my skill as a system developer.
So I was making sushi and building my base as a model developer.
After about two years, I've made a small but significant track record to have people to listen to what I was offering. After another year, the investments had paid off with some income to allow me to quit my night job. Also, through a word of mouth, an Australian institution wanted me to work for them so I left Chicago to take my arena deeper into the hedge fund business...
Anyways... that's a brief background about me. I'm not sure if it's the "right" path. I've been humiliated as a loser by traders I've worked with or known during my night job. I've been critisized for being pathetic to continue my financial career even while having a night job.
Still... I'm here.
Though, it's one path, one person took.
Well, the main cause of changing careers started with myself talking to old school floor traders. They kept on telling me that the industry is constantly changing. 99% of the business is about survival and going through a series of "metamorphism" (LOL... it was a best selling novel with the same kinda title at the time).
I was already seeing prop. firms changing at that time. The firm's style was losing edge and traders in and out of the firm with same style was feeling pressure. Everyone was hoping markets will be back to "normal" where it'll start working again, as it used to. As I mentioned above, I've been through multiple firms and a lot of us started looking for either lower commission (as usual) or new and successful firms.
I got tired of "The Loop" and because I had some background in Tradestation 4.0, I decided to take risk and do things on my own stopping the stress I had at the moment.
So I left prop. to become a freelance contract system developer, my source of income stopped. I've had some money saved up but when I decided to focus on doing things on my own, I didn't know how long it would take to get my stream of income back.
To stop my bank account from bleeding too fast, I decided to take a night job as a chef in a suhi bar. (Sushi Samba Rio, Kaze Sushi then Fulton's on the River... ask some people there about "Take-san the tall Asian sushi chef"... some old school employees will know me) During the day, I was out meeting contacts and developing models to get my financial career forward.
First thing I did was develop models using Tradestation and Wealth-Lab. So I develop a scalping system. It was back when the terms "High Frequency Trading" and "Algorithmic Trading" didn't exist but I made a fairly good "Scalping system". The problem was, I had a model but I didn't have the skills to implement them. So was forced to learn High-Level Programming to automate the style.
So I learn C# and another problem arose, I started testing the prior model in a better testing environment and it didn't work. I was testing the model in a very naive condition. So end up learning risk management and quantitative stuff. While learning all these things, I continued to improve my skill as a system developer.
So I was making sushi and building my base as a model developer.
After about two years, I've made a small but significant track record to have people to listen to what I was offering. After another year, the investments had paid off with some income to allow me to quit my night job. Also, through a word of mouth, an Australian institution wanted me to work for them so I left Chicago to take my arena deeper into the hedge fund business...
Anyways... that's a brief background about me. I'm not sure if it's the "right" path. I've been humiliated as a loser by traders I've worked with or known during my night job. I've been critisized for being pathetic to continue my financial career even while having a night job.
Still... I'm here.
Though, it's one path, one person took.