Conservatives hate government

Quote from NeoRio1:

I need a better definition of neocons.
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Neo-cons are a diverse group.
Some are the ideologists of old - who were strongly left-extremes ... others came along half way, bought the "logic" and "research" presented as some reasoning, but never got the whole ideology - but stick to it as a choice --- although it is based on false premises and repugnant special interests/greed.

Yet others are ethnic and social values-oriented, and support neo-cons while keeping their religion and perception of age old enemies intact.
 
Good post. Right on all counts.
Quote from Gringinho:

Pabst,

neo-cons are NOT fiscally conservatives...
http://www.amazon.com/Neocon-Reader-Irwin-Stelzer/dp/0802141935 (look for term "federal deficits")

http://www.amazon.com/Neoconservative-Revolution-Jewish-Intellectuals-Shaping/dp/0521836565 (neo-con values)


Neo-con domestic security measures, invasion of Syria etc.
http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2004/01/30/frum_perle/index.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E3DD1038F93BA35751C0A9629C8B63


Of course I'm aware that pro-Israel does not mean being neo-con, while it's certainly true the other way around - all neo-cons are fully pro-Israel. Lots of "traditional mainstream conservatives" are very pro-Israel, especially if religious (as most US citizens are). John Ashcroft is a good example and not a neo-con.

Neo-cons like to attack paleo-conservatives, and vice versa. They hate Pat Buchanan, and he hates them.

As for morals - that is religion/faith and external pressure on individual liberties --- however integrity and ethics are something different.
Corruption - total saturated special interests gone on a rampage - that is what has brought the US down, including neo-cons and "old-money" - they are both elitist. The neo-cons could never have gotten in power, had it not been for the support from "old-money."

If you want the real insight into morality religious context and the neo-cons - see the writings of father Dr. Gary Dorrien - the leading world expert on ethics with neo-conservatism, and currently the Reinhold Niebuhr professor at Columbia University.
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Quote from Gord:

Nice try. They were moderate liberals that moved right with a focus on anti-Soviet politics and related ideology, rejecting the move further left of their then new left compatriots. They are not fascists or totalitarians (fascism and totalitarianism are left ideologies that neoconservatism rejects).
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I'm done discussing this with you.
You are a mindless dweeb without the faintest idea of what you are talking about. You can't even understand fascism or anything as complex as history. Anyone can look up the concepts for themselves and see that you are wrong.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2798679275960015727

and http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/1323924642-89370902/title~content=t727483385~db=all
 
Quote from NeoRio1:

So Gringinho, what is your basic argument? Ive gotten lost.
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My first post was about how neo-conservatives are NOT proponents of "small government" - but like Richard Perle and David Frum outlined in their book - they'd like for a strict social control, where public citizens report on "suspicions persons or activities" as well as biometric identification cards -- and stricter policing control domestically, as well as numerous "enemies" that must be destroyed... they are the embodiment of a "police state."

In fact, George Orwell the author of "1984", based the book on the writings of James Burnham and the authoritarian totalitarianism he promoted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_101

Neo-conservativism is "political radicalism" - meaning that they project their ideology on all facets of society, policies, and demand that other individuals align themselves to their "rules" and thinking. There is no "democratic consensus," and they see themselves as having "the responsibility to provide intellectual leadership" - take the power and "bring order to the chaos" - a society not aligned to their thinking.

That is what disgusts me most about them - their vile disregard of civil liberties and total lack of respect for individuals or freedom.
 
Do you think in any way neocons came about through illegal immigration. Fiscally I am against illegal immigration because i think they will hurt our country in the long run. I heavily doubt i should be called a neocon because i want people to actually have a legit form of identification. Whether the form of identification is biometric or not is a very small issue compared to the big issue.
 
As for the police state. Everyone wants their society to be safer but i agree that there is a point where things become so policed that personal liberaties and freedom are hindered. The problem is that it almost seems that liberals are so entirely against the beliefs of neocons that they disbelieve in anything neocons believe in even when punishing child molesters and getting real forms of identification which is the most logical.
 
NeoRio1,

you are not a neo-con unless you buy into all/most of their policies and ideology. The problem is that if you start agreeing with them on "everything" you will be hard pressed to find other ideologies which are consistent enough for you to make a "rational case" for your views --- i.e the neo-cons flesh out their policies and ideas with "logic" and "research" - but as we all know you can pretty much prove what you want as long as you take things out of context, selectively exclude relevant information etc.

The point is - you will have to "develop your own philosophy" unless you accept the neo-con ideology in full, when you first start down the slippery road of accepting their viewpoints. That is NOT something an average person is equipped to do - knowledge wise etc.

A police state is first and foremost "totalitarian" - which is where the "political radicalism" comes in. Immigration is a problem when there are great differences between regions - of course - and the solution is obviously to help in stabilizing other regions so they can enjoy continued growth - not destabilization like the US normally foes through "power projection."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection
 
Gringinho do you believe that some far left liberals go against logic in order to disagree with neocons or in order to consolidate against them?
 
Quote from Gringinho:


Neo-conservatives is "political radicalism" - meaning that they project their ideology on all facets of society, policies, and demand that other individuals align themselves to their "rules" and thinking. There is no "democratic consensus," and they see themselves as having "the responsibility to provide intellectual leadership" - take the power and "bring order to the chaos" - a society not aligned to their thinking.

That is what disgusts me most about them - their vile disregard of civil liberties and total lack of respect for individuals or freedom.
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What a pile of bull - all rhetoric and no substance. Name one country that fits your definition...

(Please say the United States and illustrate for everyone what an ass you are...)
 
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