Confessions of a revenge trader

I think it is fantastic that NoDoji just posted the Mark Douglas information. I just went back and read those exact chapters yesterday.

I had a tough week of trading this past week and I was getting into my own head.

After reviewing those chapters, I am very excited and feel freed. I've read Trading in the Zone before, but returning to it after a while helps the lessons sink in.

To sum it up, it is saying something like:

Don't have any expectations when you put on a trade. The reason you are having negative feelings or having trouble letting go of a loss is because you entered the trade with the expectations that it was going to be a winner. You know you have a good system. You also know that your system doesn't win 100% of the time. Therefore, you should never have any expectations of what the result of any individual trade should be. It's impossible to know. You just know it will be either a winner or loser. If you take enough trades you will make money, since you know you have a good system.

Imagine flipping a coin. If it land heads then you lose $100. If it land tails then you make $150. We all know this would be a winning game to play. I'd sit there flipping that coin all day long. We also all know there is no way to know if heads or tails is going to come up next. If you were playing this game, would you get all bent out of shape, worked up, and out of sorts because you got three heads in a row? Probably not, because you know that if you keep on playing you are going to make money.

I think that adjusting your thoughts to have no expectations for each trade may free you up to better execute your trading plan.

Now, I don't normally take big loss, but I do always pick and choose and second guess my entries and exits because of expectations I have about what the trade is going to do. Expectations that were there before the trade went on and expectations about how it is going to play out during the trade. Having no expectations and just executing my plan is such a liberating concept.

Also, by having no expectations that a trade will be a winner will help keep you from jumping the gun and entering trades early. The reason that happens is because you are expecting the trade to be a winner, so you don't want to miss out. Without those thoughts, there would be no pressure to jump in early before confirmation. You would only end up taking the trades when signaled by you plan.

I’m pretty much just regurgitating ideas from Trading in the Zone. I hope this helps.

Quote from Learning2Trade:

My story: I've been trading futures for about a year with mixed results ar best. Recently, I've been practicing a trading system for a good 4 months and let me tell you, I ROCK the sim account. Ok great, so finally I go live and what happens? I have 2 winning days and 5 losing ones. Bad!!! Where do I go wrong? It's not the system's fault (nothing to do with slippage and whatnot), it's mine. My problem is that I can't take a loss. I basically go to pieces mentally and suddenly I am taking ridiculous trades that lose, compounding my loss. I can hardly even believe how fast I leap into a bad trade after having taken a loss. I feel particularly frustrated as I KNOW I can do better. I need to find a way to maintain a good mental state in the face of thr inevitable trades which don't work out. In fact, here are the pressures which give me difficulty:

-taking a loss
-thinking about taking a trade, hesitating, watching price move as anticipated and feeling like I'm "missing the move"
-trying to anticipate a turning point, jumping in too early
-taking a loss and still feeling like I need to "make it up" the next time I trade. In other words, it's still on my mind.

Amazing how much of a mental game this is!

I would greatly appreciate any insight or suggestions from others who have gone through this. I must conquer this problem otherwise I will never be a successful trader. Thanks in advance.
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Quote from burt_schroder:

Nope.

I would be extremely rich without the spread, non-fills, comms and slippage.

Chop, is a little pussy kitten compared to the above.
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ok, man you must be trading a lot of size, I don't know if I am going to live long enough to find out what that is like

but I can tell you, the broker is starting to make a decent living off of me
 
at one time I was a fairly substantial es trader. One year on Dec 31 my account ended almost to the penny where it started back on Jan 1. I spent the Holiday going back over all the trades. I had a pretty decent hit rate. but it was all eaten up in the spread and commish.

in otherwords, my trades were pretty good. But I couldn't beat that $12.50 per contract spread. And the previous year had been quite lucrative as a scalper. And that is when I started holding overnight. And started worrying about getting wiped out.
 
<i>I think it is fantastic that NoDoji just posted the Mark Douglas information.</i>

Agreed. I've been plowing through it and it is helping. Overall, it's a great lense to view trading through. Clearly, my losses create angst and once I am in that fearful frame of mind, I am essentially mentally disabled and as such, unable to fully listen to what the market is telling me. The next time I trade I am still in that fearful state of mind (lost money before / may happen again?!) and I'm handicapped from the start. Classic.

<i>I think that adjusting your thoughts to have no expectations for each trade may free you up to better execute your trading plan.</i>

Yes, and as Monsieur Douglas says, to fully accept the risk. If one fully accepts the risk, then there <i>is</i> no risk and our minds are freed up to trade accordingly.

A lot about trading is completely counter-intuitive, isn't it?

<i>in otherwords, my trades were pretty good. But I couldn't beat that $12.50 per contract spread. And the previous year had been quite lucrative as a scalper. And that is when I started holding overnight. And started worrying about getting wiped out.</i>

Wow, holding ES positions overnite? That takes guts! I would never do that. Too many news-driven events can occur; hence why I got out of investing and into day trading in the first place. I hope that works out for you (seriously); lots of potential for profit (and loss).
 
Quote from Learning2Trade:

My story: I've been trading futures for about a year with mixed results ar best. Recently, I've been practicing a trading system for a good 4 months and let me tell you, I ROCK the sim account. Ok great, so finally I go live and what happens? I have 2 winning days and 5 losing ones. Bad!!! Where do I go wrong? It's not the system's fault (nothing to do with slippage and whatnot), it's mine. My problem is that I can't take a loss. I basically go to pieces mentally and suddenly I am taking ridiculous trades that lose, compounding my loss. I can hardly even believe how fast I leap into a bad trade after having taken a loss. I feel particularly frustrated as I KNOW I can do better. I need to find a way to maintain a good mental state in the face of thr inevitable trades which don't work out. In fact, here are the pressures which give me difficulty:

-taking a loss
-thinking about taking a trade, hesitating, watching price move as anticipated and feeling like I'm "missing the move"
-trying to anticipate a turning point, jumping in too early
-taking a loss and still feeling like I need to "make it up" the next time I trade. In other words, it's still on my mind.

Amazing how much of a mental game this is!

I would greatly appreciate any insight or suggestions from others who have gone through this. I must conquer this problem otherwise I will never be a successful trader. Thanks in advance.
More...

I use to give very good advise, but seldom anyone would use it cause people think since it is was free, how good can it be? And just cause I been trading 34 years and I has built up a very nice account, I am not in the same boat as you are. So I will say this, keep doing the revenge trading cause I make boatloads of money each and every day from guys like you. Your discipline sucks and when you get angry and get on board again, I need traders like you so I can get out. I already know from my early years of trading, I have thrown away six figures cause my discipline sucked, now it is your turn to pay me cause I have no problems taking a loss cause the method is taking the loss and not me personality. I set a Goal each day, when goal is met, I reduce contract size 90%, but I want others to trade all day long so I can make more from them on the 10% I still trade. Nothing is more fun than to watch protective stops get hit in afternoon knowing the percentages that the ES market is going to reverse at certain times and knowing the "revenge" trader is going to allow me to get out with nice profits. I have no clue if my heart will beat again, have no clue if I will awake next morning, but all the losers who just "KNOW" when the market will reverse, how comical is this? I could care less if I miss a move, just want to make my low daily Goal in the morning. So keep dreaming you going to make it as a day trader and I will know when you ran out of money when it gets just a "tiny" bit harder to get out with my desired profits.

Life is good.
 
Quote from Handle123:

I use to give very good advise, but seldom anyone would use it cause people think since it is was free, how good can it be? And just cause I been trading 34 years and I has built up a very nice account, I am not in the same boat as you are. So I will say this, keep doing the revenge trading cause I make boatloads of money each and every day from guys like you. Your discipline sucks and when you get angry and get on board again, I need traders like you so I can get out. I already know from my early years of trading, I have thrown away six figures cause my discipline sucked, now it is your turn to pay me cause I have no problems taking a loss cause the method is taking the loss and not me personality. I set a Goal each day, when goal is met, I reduce contract size 90%, but I want others to trade all day long so I can make more from them on the 10% I still trade. Nothing is more fun than to watch protective stops get hit in afternoon knowing the percentages that the ES market is going to reverse at certain times and knowing the "revenge" trader is going to allow me to get out with nice profits. I have no clue if my heart will beat again, have no clue if I will awake next morning, but all the losers who just "KNOW" when the market will reverse, how comical is this? I could care less if I miss a move, just want to make my low daily Goal in the morning. So keep dreaming you going to make it as a day trader and I will know when you ran out of money when it gets just a "tiny" bit harder to get out with my desired profits.

Life is good.
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oh handle, you're on a roll tonight aren't you? I'll agree with you on one thing. Once those stops start getting hit there is no stopping them. All lined up just like ducks in a row.
 
Quote from oldtime:

whatever

if you aint got the brains to figure it out

I don't have the patience to explain it to you

most of the time the market chops

If it didn't we'd all be rich

anyone who claims to make a living from the chop

is just the next candidate to get wiped out when it finally trends
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Up until several years ago, I never Trend traded the Indexes, I ave 2-4pts from 8:30 to 12:15 mdt, finally noticed a few patterns that were consistent in Indexes for trend trading, liked it better so I could pretty quit in 40 minutes to reach my Goal. If I want to really make some coin, doing 60 minute bars using simple trendlines in Indexes best bet for me, one does have to hold overnite.
 
Quote from Handle123:

Up until several years ago, I never Trend traded the Indexes, I ave 2-4pts from 8:30 to 12:15 mdt, finally noticed a few patterns that were consistent in Indexes for trend trading, liked it better so I could pretty quit in 40 minutes to reach my Goal. If I want to really make some coin, doing 60 minute bars using simple trendlines in Indexes best bet for me, one does have to hold overnite.
More...
well, perhaps I overspoke a little. That chop will pay the electricity bill while you are waiting for the trend, which can be a long time coming. But in the end in traders heaven (or hell) they won't be talking about the chop. It will all be endless stories about the one big trend.
 
I'd like to share a couple of things.

Last night I looked at the Aussie dollar. It was trading just below 1.03. My analysis told me that despite some recent strength we could very likely test 1.02 before we resumed any serious buying pressure. This was my bias.
I watched the Aussie sell off through the night and into the US trading session. I never got a trade off. Did it suck? Of course it did. But I was never paralyzed by fear, and I was never chasing. I simply never had my setup criteria met. That's it. On to the next trade.
Now I use to be just like you. I would have been steaming come this morning thinking, if not in fact yelling to myself. Look, my analysis was spot on. How could I miss that move. This is of course If I hadn't chased during the night. Had I done so I would have been rewarded, but eventually this approach will cost me, as it often did so many times.
See in my opinion good setups are less to do with making money than they are having emotional checks and balances. This is essential to good trading. You never elaborated on your methods, but I'm assuming you are just shooting from the hip when you trade. Unless you are a robot this approach offers no emotional checks and balances and will undoubtedly - UNDOUBTEDLY - cripple you in time.
Pick one thing and work at it. If you are trying to ride moves, pick pivot tops and bottoms, trends, consolidation, etc. Every time you flip on your charts it will cripple you.
Finally for what it's worth I have a hard time letting a loser go too and I've been trading for almost nine years. But this keeps me Hungary to find my next SETUP, not my next TRADE.
I hope my little preamble helps you understand the difference.
 
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