Condor Credit Spreads: Most common misconceptions, mistakes, lessons

Quote from stevenpaul:

One of the most common misconceptions about Iron Condors I encounter is the notion that there is any difference between an Iron Condor and an ordinary condor or between iron butterflies and regular butterflies.

There is a difference, but it's not on the basis you discuss. It has to do with the positioning of the trade relative to the underlying. If you're trading market neutral, the iron is the better trade because all the options are either ATM or OTM which reduces transaction cost. If you have a delta bias, then you should prefer the natural over the iron for the same reason.
 
Quote from sonoma:

There is a difference, but it's not on the basis you discuss. It has to do with the positioning of the trade relative to the underlying. If you're trading market neutral, the iron is the better trade because all the options are either ATM or OTM which reduces transaction cost. If you have a delta bias, then you should prefer the natural over the iron for the same reason.

What does delta bias have to do with it? An iron condor, put condor, or call condor are all synthetically equivalent. The main problem with a condor is that it starts with an in the money short call or put which increases your risk of assignment. Another practical issue is that open interest of deep in the money options tends to be far lower than open interest of equally far out of the money options. So you can expect higher liquidity and thus better bid/ask spreads for the OTM options (a general rule, not a guarantee).

If liquidity and assignment risk aren't an issue you should use whichever one has the best price. Having a direction bias might make you decide to sell a condor with a positive or negative delta, but I can't see how that would affect your choice of a condor or iron condor.
 
Quote from rew:

What does delta bias have to do with it? An iron condor, put condor, or call condor are all synthetically equivalent. The main problem with a condor is that it starts with an in the money short call or put which increases your risk of assignment. Another practical issue is that open interest of deep in the money options tends to be far lower than open interest of equally far out of the money options. So you can expect higher liquidity and thus better bid/ask spreads for the OTM options (a general rule, not a guarantee).

If liquidity and assignment risk aren't an issue you should use whichever one has the best price. Having a direction bias might make you decide to sell a condor with a positive or negative delta, but I can't see how that would affect your choice of a condor or iron condor.

I wasn't addressing assignment, since assignment isn't a disadvantage, although that's a longer discussion. My point is that when trading ITM options, there is a near certainty of a less favorable bid-ask spread compared to the complementary call/put position. That makes trading ITM positions almost always more transaction intensive compared to the equivalent OTM trade. A strong delta bias might put all the legs of your natural ATM/OTM which would then make that trade preferable to the equivalent iron.
 
Quote from sonoma:

I wasn't addressing assignment, since assignment isn't a disadvantage, although that's a longer discussion. My point is that when trading ITM options, there is a near certainty of a less favorable bid-ask spread compared to the complementary call/put position. That makes trading ITM positions almost always more transaction intensive compared to the equivalent OTM trade. A strong delta bias might put all the legs of your natural ATM/OTM which would then make that trade preferable to the equivalent iron.

Okay, by "biased" I hadn't understood *how* biased. Most iron condors involve selling a well OTM bear call spread and selling a well OTM bull put spread. You are considering the case where you expect the underlying to go up, say, (but not up too much) so you buy a near the money bull call debit spread and reduce its cost by selling a well OTM bear call credit spread (i.e., a call condor). I agree, this is a case where the non-iron (wooden?) condor makes good sense.
 
Quote from rew:

Okay, by "biased" I hadn't understood *how* biased. Most iron condors involve selling a well OTM bear call spread and selling a well OTM bull put spread. You are considering the case where you expect the underlying to go up, say, (but not up too much) so you buy a near the money bull call debit spread and reduce its cost by selling a well OTM bear call credit spread (i.e., a call condor). I agree, this is a case where the non-iron (wooden?) condor makes good sense.

Exactly. Your first scenario is the most common, of course, in which the view is market neutral. In this case the iron is the preferable trade, not the natural.
 
Quote from stevenpaul:

I don't know, maybe traders think the word iron means they can't lose as much money. I know if I were putting my money on something as fragile and ephemeral as a butterfly, I'd want it to be made of iron too.

LOL, good post.

Plus, it's really cool to tell your friends that you're trading IRON CONDORS - as if you're really smart or something.:)
 
Quote from donnap:

LOL, good post.

Plus, it's really cool to tell your friends that you're trading IRON CONDORS - as if you're really smart or something.:)

I have no idea what your talking about? :eek:

License_Plate.jpg


I tried the more chemically correct version but all the letters would not fit. :)
 
Quote from jwcapital:

Here is a practice problem with IC's vs IB's. I am looking at the October 2010 Futures options with the DEC 2010 as the underlying. When I place IC's I like to place the body at 1 SD (standard deviation). So, this month the ATM strike for me was 1115. The short put would be placed at 1045 and the short call at 1185. Here is the problem. The short put's premium was 7.00 and the short call's premium was 2. Given this scenario, where do you place the wings? The short call's premium is ridiculously low. By placing any wing the net premium isn't even worth the risk. Plus the margin requirement is 2 1/2 times higher than the equivalent IB. So, how do we make this a better trade?

I am shocked to see that no one has attacked this problem. Take another look. There must be some IC traders here.
 
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