Competing Objectives...Who Wins?
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all I can say is "Thanks, Trader Jim",
I am not representing opinion as facts. I have relayed the experiences of those whom I have seen, and known and others in this thread.
Yeah, I did take a puch at 'ya with one response, however, you took a few back at me, so even.
Again, I will say that this thread is not about you or me, but about the realities of what this industry has become.
There have been vastly far more than just two supporters or detractors to the discussion mentioned in this thread. The assumptions used to frame the arguement were neutral in their bias and not inflamatory.
Although we clothe ourselves in licensing and procedures, there remain a number of defrauded individuals from firms that simply closed up through a number of seemingly legal steps and opened up under other names with the same staff and doing the same thing all over again. There are a number of posts throughout Elitetrader regarding those facts.
Jumping to the conclusion that a firm, or these firms, or all firms are liars or not, based on their sales presentations, is not the direction or intent of this thread, nor will I agree to defend against that belief.
There simply remains a significant amount of competing objectives between these firms and their customer base (licensed traders). Who wins is the question in a rhetorical fashion.
I never thought about it like that, but that is a very good way to look at it, and very true in my opinion. The successful traders I have seen also have the entrepreneurial spirit and you do get the sense that they would be successful in any field they would have entered. Nice observation. You are now invited to join limitdown and I in our Jello wrestling match.
Don,
your comments are always appreciated. frankly your firm is one of the only ones out here (there are others, too) that maintain a much higher standard, and actually tries to resolve the competing objectives so that the trader actual has a shake, let alone a fair shake.
Opening Only Orders, regular training from other successful traders in your branches, regular conference calls to the branches and concern for training on an ongoing basis.
Schon... is a tight lipped operation. Those going in are under lock and key not to talk, share or otherwise, which serves them well. There are few other original firms, which were formed by traders for traders and still on-going.
Your insights that you added certainly added volumes to this discussion. Pity you didn't keep typing and adding more.
Now that would be a picture for Optional777, Don(King) in a jello wrestling match....I would prefer mud wrestling (not necessarily with you guys...lol)
Seriously again, I have seen about 99% of the spectrum of those who have traded, from the best to the worst, the meek to the "kamikaze" types. I have never ceased to be amazed of how wrong my gut feeling might be about some ("this guy seems to be under control" ...yeah right, gone in 6 months)....and the opposite (This guy is gonna be a problem, but seems to be intent on doing this anyway), and have them make good, consistent money.
One thing I haven't quite figured out yet, about our ET community, is why those who are so adamantly against trading, bother to spend time here. I'm not a skydiver, a lawyer, or a doctor, and I certainly don't spend time on those types of sites...(except when possibly trying to "self-diagnose" some ailment...
I always enjoy a good discussion, and yours seems to have only strayed for short time, and everyone seems to be civil.
Back to ya....
Don
Now this is a first....I hope O777 doesn't see this....someone actually wanting more from me than less. lol
A little more in the last post.....thanks for the good words, always appreciated...!!
Don
One thing I haven't quite figured out yet, about our ET community, is why those who are so adamantly against trading, bother to spend time here. I'm not a skydiver, a lawyer, or a doctor, and I certainly don't spend time on those types of sites...(except when possibly trying to "self-diagnose" some ailment...
Don, it happens in every community of scale that I've seen. When you reach a level of success and activity, you invariably get people who are more interested in disrupting rather than contributing.
I've worked with AOL and Lycos and it doesn't surprise me anymore that trolls come out. They seem to have no life or are envious or bitter. And that's just the trolls... people who aren't there for the subject matter, really.
Then you have people who are, in fact, quite knowledgeable on the subject matter, but are abrasive or make no effort to be tactful or respect a differing view point. With this type, it still surprises me how after having their say, they can't simply let the issue drop and move on. It's like being rude their birthright or something. I donât get it.
André
Don, it happens in every community of scale that I've seen. When you reach a level of success and activity, you invariably get people who are more interested in disrupting rather than contributing.
I've worked with AOL and Lycos and it doesn't surprise me anymore that trolls come out. They seem to have no life or are envious or bitter. And that's just the trolls... people who aren't there for the subject matter, really.
Then you have people who are, in fact, quite knowledgeable on the subject matter, but are abrasive or make no effort to be tactful or respect a differing view point. With this type, it still surprises me how after having their say, they can't simply let the issue drop and move on. It's like being rude their birthright or something. I donât get it.
André
Quote from Andre:
One thing I haven't quite figured out yet, about our ET community, is why those who are so adamantly against trading, bother to spend time here. I'm not a skydiver, a lawyer, or a doctor, and I certainly don't spend time on those types of sites...(except when possibly trying to "self-diagnose" some ailment...
Don, it happens in every community of scale that I've seen. When you reach a level of success and activity, you invariably get people who are more interested in disrupting rather than contributing.
I've worked with AOL and Lycos and it doesn't surprise me anymore that trolls come out. They seem to have no life or are envious or bitter. And that's just the trolls... people who aren't there for the subject matter, really.
Then you have people who are, in fact, quite knowledgeable on the subject matter, but are abrasive or make no effort to be tactful or respect a differing view point. With this type, it still surprises me how after having their say, they can't simply let the issue drop and move on. It's like being rude their birthright or something. I donât get it.
André
Don, Andre', good comments.
I guess we can let things go, when more traders actually succeed, and can attest to that success on these boards. Pound for pound, this has been the most challenging and rewarding career choice I have ever made personally. I've actually helped many other traders succeed. However, there are those who had what it took but under the rules of the trading desk, or should it be better said, under the impression of the rules as they were conveyed, never did succeed.
One of the better traders came off the floor in the options pits. He simply drew some S&R lines and traded on those bands. He regularly made under $400 daily, but never enough to show at the end of the month.
One other trader used to have a funny expression, something along the lines of how he was never smart enough to know people were talking about him (I guess that meant he had thick skin). He took his $25,000 grub stake and blew it on trading the QQQ's. He followed those trading courses religiously and never hit the trend or phase correctly enough to save his grub stake or make a dollar for the 4 months he was on our desk.
Then there was another trader who leveraged his personal account into huge daily gains, sometimes over $4,000 - $7,000 on news items, although he kept those positions until they proved him right or were large enough to close out. In his prop account he burned through, well over $30,000 and could only scalp trade successfully but not enough to stem his losing slide.
Since these are the traders that show up at the doors of the prop shops and not some perfectly crafted individual, these are the people that the firms are challenged to work with. Whether or not they succeed and their objectives remain in common, is the reality and the challenge, both.
We all benefit be examining these realities and not living in some dreary dream world that keeps whispering: "every thing is all right". Discussions like these are not rude in nature.
I agree, I'm glad to discuss virtually anything here on the board, as long as the discussion doesn't get too outrageous. I can "agree to disagree" without a problem.
Don
Don
The bottom line is still the question ? What is the percentage of traders that make it and can scrape up a Min $50-75k+ yrly- regardless of their background , trading habits , holding patterns , scalping etc. And for that , if it is an extremely low amount (like way below 15% or some number akin to other professions) the trading profession (like any other) must answer for it ! One way or another .