Competing Objectives...Who Wins?

Quote from limitdown:




I couldn't have paid for a comment like this....

you would have thought that the increased buy power, say 10:1, 15:1, 25:1 or whatever, would have allowed you to buy/hold 40,000 shares, and watch it skyrocket through +3.00 (i.e. +$120,000), and then to see it go past that, and up over +$5.85 or more from where it was baselining (i.e. +$234,000).

missing boats like that are enough to drive ya ta drinkkk.....
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Yeah!! But that's the PROBLEM with the PROP TRADING MODEL!! They RUINED US ALL WITH this penny here and penny there scalp attitude! Luckily, I'm slowly UNDOING ALL OF MY BAD SCALPING HABITS!! If I had the same mentality/correct attitudes that I have now as of a few weeks ago, I would have been able to easily hold up to now and still holding!!!

I'm a new man now!! But that opportunity is not there anymore!
:( But sure there will be others. It's good to learn it the RIGHT habits! Cuz the wrong habits can stick with you for a long long time to come!
 
Quote from limitdown:




I couldn't have paid for a comment like this....

you would have thought that the increased buy power, say 10:1, 15:1, 25:1 or whatever, would have allowed you to buy/hold 40,000 shares, and watch it skyrocket through +3.00 (i.e. +$120,000), and then to see it go past that, and up over +$5.85 or more from where it was baselining (i.e. +$234,000).

missing boats like that are enough to drive ya ta drinkkk.....
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Actually even if the prop firm allowed you to hold that long(which none of them would), you should NOT be leverage 10x to 25x on ONE position. Geez. That's just poor money management. You shouldn't bet more than 1-5% of your total account.

One false move and you are more than wiped out 25x over! But on 2000 shares, it's nothing. I wouldn't care if it went to zero. But I sold too soon. Oh boy, oh boy!
 
Nitro: I can tell you one thing though and this has been discussed before at ET ad-naseum : From principals at firms that I have talked to that have access to MOUNDS of data of hundreds of traders over many years, the statistic is that the decent traders make about .013 to .017 cents per share per. 01 penny spent (assuming .01 per share pricing - those that get their commissions down make that much more.) The really terrific traders make .02 per share + and are talking advantage of the commission charge limit at these firms that cap the commission at $20 - $25 (about 2K shares at .01 per share)...

Nitro, it was really interesting to read your post and then have the ECHOtrade Chat. After the chat Vito came back into the room to discuss his personal per share gain. The numbers you quote are right on the money. The thing that makes it possible is trading volume.

Vito came back into the room because people were discussing his average per share profit of .015 cents-they couldn't belive it. I think that is what's hard for most people to wrap their brain around (I'm in that group)... that you can make money when you average such a small amount per share.

I'd wager many of us here are shooting to make 30 to 40 cents, with a 10 cent stop loss. Vito's point was, he's trying to anticipate a 21 cent move, and he's glad to pull out 7 cents of that move. Of course he does it 10-20 times a day, 500-2,000 shares at a time and is in a position for only 1-5 minutes.

André
 
Quote from Andre:

Nitro: I can tell you one thing though and this has been discussed before at ET ad-naseum : From principals at firms that I have talked to that have access to MOUNDS of data of hundreds of traders over many years, the statistic is that the decent traders make about .013 to .017 cents per share per. 01 penny spent (assuming .01 per share pricing - those that get their commissions down make that much more.) The really terrific traders make .02 per share + and are talking advantage of the commission charge limit at these firms that cap the commission at $20 - $25 (about 2K shares at .01 per share)...

Nitro, it was really interesting to read your post and then have the ECHOtrade Chat. After the chat Vito came back into the room to discuss his personal per share gain. The numbers you quote are right on the money. The thing that makes it possible is trading volume.

Vito came back into the room because people were discussing his average per share profit of .015 cents-they couldn't belive it. (I think) that is what's hard for most people to wrap their brain around (I'm in that group)... that you can make money when you average such a small amount per share.

I'd wager many of us here are shooting to make 30 to 40 cents, with a 10 cent stop loss. Vito's point was, he's trying to anticipate a 21 cent move, and he's glad to pull out 7 cents of that move. Of course he does it 10-20 times a day, 500-2,000 shares at a time and is in a position for only 1-5 minutes.

André.
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Yeah, sure. I know what you mean. But if you have really learned to trade, then you can still hold 500-2000 shars for 30-40cents move or more. Why do you have to get out at 1.5cents or 7cents?

Trade your strategy. Do not trade money as they say!
 
Quote from trader99:



Yeah, sure. I know what you mean. But if you have really learned to trade, then you can still hold 500-2000 shars for 30-40cents move or more. Why do you have to get out at 1.5cents or 7cents?

Trade your strategy. Do not trade money as they say!
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NO offense to VIto, or other successful traders,

but TRader99 you really saw right through that one didn't ya?
 
the other downside to this type of trading is that it becomes a part of you and your makeup

imagine treating your children in a 1.5minute - 7minute window, instead of whatever time they needed?

imagine that being your girlfriend, wife, etc.?

holding for 1min-5mins might be good,
many firms teach that technique, however,

chart your trades with pinpoints and see exactly what part of the elliot wave count you started/closed a trade at

you will be surprised with the actual picture of frantic activity that it paints

smooth out the curve, lessen the frequency of trades and hold for, say a record 1hour/60minutes and see the differences

but, oops, there's that unspoken alterior motive of high volume is preferable to efficient trading..

oopps, I forgot that..
 
Quote from Andre:

Nitro: I can tell you one thing though and this has been discussed before at ET ad-naseum : From principals at firms that I have talked to that have access to MOUNDS of data of hundreds of traders over many years, the statistic is that the decent traders make about .013 to .017 cents per share per. 01 penny spent (assuming .01 per share pricing - those that get their commissions down make that much more.) The really terrific traders make .02 per share + and are talking advantage of the commission charge limit at these firms that cap the commission at $20 - $25 (about 2K shares at .01 per share)...

Nitro, it was really interesting to read your post and then have the ECHOtrade Chat. After the chat Vito came back into the room to discuss his personal per share gain. The numbers you quote are right on the money. The thing that makes it possible is trading volume.

Vito came back into the room because people were discussing his average per share profit of .015 cents-they couldn't belive it. I think that is what's hard for most people to wrap their brain around (I'm in that group)... that you can make money when you average such a small amount per share.

I'd wager many of us here are shooting to make 30 to 40 cents, with a 10 cent stop loss. Vito's point was, he's trying to anticipate a 21 cent move, and he's glad to pull out 7 cents of that move. Of course he does it 10-20 times a day, 500-2,000 shares at a time and is in a position for only 1-5 minutes.

André
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Andre,

I speak from experience and the experience of hundreds of traders whose experience I have access to indirectly.

There is a lot of crap that gets spewed here on ET by traders that assume their truth is THE truth - they may have even tried this style of trading, failed at it, and assumed it was a scam.

I am 100% convinced that the only way to convince yourself of the truth is to throw yourself into a firm and then travel around the country to different offices within that firm. This way, you get exposed to all kinds of different profitable/unprofitable traders and can decide for yourself [to say nothing of the adventure!]

While I do not knock down other ways/styles of making money trading, this is the one I KNOW puts food/rent/car payments/private school money in my pocket.

nitro
 
I love these kinds of discussions and dilemmas. In putting chats on and in my former job with Innerworth, I get to talk to traders. I get to talk to them all the time. I love it. There's so many angles and ways of looking at trading.

I've always considered myself a swing trader, looking for 3-4 points in a 2 week to 2 month time frame. But what I've been able to predict is actually the 2 day to 2 week period. And where I want to trade is intra day. It's weird.

I know what you mean. But if you have really learned to trade, then you can still hold 500-2000 shares for 30-40cents move or more. Why do you have to get out at 1.5cents or 7cents?

I belive Vito's response to why they only shoot for 7 cents was managing risk and in what they can predict in this market. I admit, I have a hard time thinking making a penny and half is worth it. But what if you're making 5-8K a month? I'd take that.

The comments are valid about only learning to take small. But I'd think that if you're a good trader, you adapt. If we get a sustained bull, you'd be able to hold longer (with the ECHOtrade Methodology). But right now, they can't predict that. That's what I took out of the chat anyway.

André
 
Quote from Andre:

I love these kinds of discussions and dilemmas. In putting chats on and in my former job with Innerworth, I get to talk to traders. I get to talk to them all the time. I love it. There's so many angles and ways of looking at trading.

I've always considered myself a swing trader, looking for 3-4 points in a 2 week to 2 month time frame. But what I've been able to predict is actually the 2 day to 2 week period. And where I want to trade is intra day. It's weird.

I know what you mean. But if you have really learned to trade, then you can still hold 500-2000 shares for 30-40cents move or more. Why do you have to get out at 1.5cents or 7cents?

I belive Vito's response to why they only shoot for 7 cents was managing risk and in what they can predict in this market. I admit, I have a hard time thinking making a penny and half is worth it. But what if you're making 5-8K a month? I'd take that.

The comments are valid about only learning to take small. But I'd think that if you're a good trader, you adapt. If we get a sustained bull, you'd be able to hold longer (with the ECHOtrade Methodology). But right now, they can't predict that. That's what I took out of the chat anyway.

André
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Andre,

I'm not saying one style is superior to another. Whatever floats your boat dude. And if you taking 1.5cents out of each trade for 2000-5000shares lot floats your boat and you get 5-8K NET income at the end of each month while generating another 10K in commissions then fine. All is good.

My point is that holding longer does NOT translate to more risk IF you are holding winners. Holding losers long or short term is RISKY and STUPID. I cut my losers faster than anything. As soon as it doesn't feel right I get out even BEFORE my R(risk per unit). That's the only way to survive in this business.

The main thing I'm trying to drive at is that WHEN you DO have a SUPER WINNER, then it tends to go your way even more. Like just this minute, I just got out of a 50cents winner. It started out only being a 10cents winner then 20 cents. I took a few thousands shares at 20-30cents. Then the last bit at 50cents. Obviously, it would be nice to held through the entire 50cents move but I'm just trying to reduce my market exposure. That in my opinion is proper risk management. Geting out at an arbitrary point like 7cents or 1.5cents cuz you are afraid is not trading according to a strategy, but trading out of fear.

But on the other hand, if the position I had one went against me I would have taken off the entire 3800 shares right away without blinking.

It took me a long time to realize what the Market Wizards and the trading books were talking about holding onto winners. But that's the only way that I see to make long term money FOR ME at least.

I applaud those of you that are raking in serious cash on 1.5cents. More power to you. To each its own.

good luck all!

trader99
 
The main thing I'm trying to drive at is that WHEN you DO have a SUPER WINNER, then it tends to go your way even more.
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I know what you mean trader99. Just imagine having a trade that started out as a scalp for $200 turn out to be a $4500 winner in a few days. When something like that happens to a person, they'll change their mind about chopping off those winners.
 
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