Compensation for traders at top firms?
- Thread starter sammybea
- Start date
***Come June/July, my size will double. Or, if I end up at Bright or Echo, it will triple or quadruple to start with. At that point, extrapolating from my winning percentage now, I would be at $500,000/Year. If I hung out with Don/Bob/Earl, I would probably get to a million/year (plus whatever I could make playing Bridge, Blackjack and Omaha.)***
Whoever feed you this non-sense most definitely need a heart surgery to see if it is still clean inside.
You have 100K a year and you make 20K a year, you have 500K a year you make 100K a year, I am sorry, it doesn't work that way, never did, never will. You are an intraday trader and you will run into liquidity issues.
It takes tremendous skill and strategy to increase the size you trade, and a lot of people can never break into that next level simply because they can not open themselve for bigger sizes (I am one of them).
And nobody on this planet can make another person a successful trader, you either have it or you don't, he can feed you with some mechanical knowledge but he will not make that difference unless he is holding your hand which I doubt you will see from anyone on your list.
Looks like Don feed you a very smoky dream and you are due for some reality check . . . VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN MAKE 500K A YEAR DAY TRADING, MARK MY WORDS.
Whoever feed you this non-sense most definitely need a heart surgery to see if it is still clean inside.
You have 100K a year and you make 20K a year, you have 500K a year you make 100K a year, I am sorry, it doesn't work that way, never did, never will. You are an intraday trader and you will run into liquidity issues.
It takes tremendous skill and strategy to increase the size you trade, and a lot of people can never break into that next level simply because they can not open themselve for bigger sizes (I am one of them).
And nobody on this planet can make another person a successful trader, you either have it or you don't, he can feed you with some mechanical knowledge but he will not make that difference unless he is holding your hand which I doubt you will see from anyone on your list.
Looks like Don feed you a very smoky dream and you are due for some reality check . . . VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN MAKE 500K A YEAR DAY TRADING, MARK MY WORDS.
hitman -
i agree and disagree with what you said.
extrapolating by saying well i make x trading y shares, so i should make 2x trading 2y shares is setting yourself up for disaster. agree with you on this.
however, i think trading size depends on three things. market liquidity, trading style, and emotions. emotions being a pretty big factor. from your journal, it seems that emotions may be what are holding you back from really jumping size right now. your a very defensive trader (that's not bad) but i think because of that you mentally have trouble increasing your size. i don't know if you'll disagree or not.
i think you might be jumping the gun by saying nitro cannot make 500k without knowing more about his trading style, etc. also, i don't think making 500k a year is as hard as you make it seem. but i trade futures so maybe numbers like that are more common in futures than in stock trading.
i agree and disagree with what you said.
extrapolating by saying well i make x trading y shares, so i should make 2x trading 2y shares is setting yourself up for disaster. agree with you on this.
however, i think trading size depends on three things. market liquidity, trading style, and emotions. emotions being a pretty big factor. from your journal, it seems that emotions may be what are holding you back from really jumping size right now. your a very defensive trader (that's not bad) but i think because of that you mentally have trouble increasing your size. i don't know if you'll disagree or not.
i think you might be jumping the gun by saying nitro cannot make 500k without knowing more about his trading style, etc. also, i don't think making 500k a year is as hard as you make it seem. but i trade futures so maybe numbers like that are more common in futures than in stock trading.
***your a very defensive trader (that's not bad) but i think because of that you mentally have trouble increasing your size. i don't know if you'll disagree or not.***
Agree.
***also, i don't think making 500k a year is as hard as you make it seem. but i trade futures so maybe numbers like that are more common in futures than in stock trading.***
Let me just ask you then, are you on schedule to make 500K this year trading futures (I assume S&P/Nasdaq, if you are doing commodities I am not sure how it works).
Agree.
***also, i don't think making 500k a year is as hard as you make it seem. but i trade futures so maybe numbers like that are more common in futures than in stock trading.***
Let me just ask you then, are you on schedule to make 500K this year trading futures (I assume S&P/Nasdaq, if you are doing commodities I am not sure how it works).
WOW! I don't know what to say - I really missed judged you - I would have never dreamed that you could say something so crass.
Pffft. I am talking about going from 500 shares to 2000-2500 in SP 100 stocks, many of them DOW components - I have seen your journals and I see that you trade low volume stocks - trading 2000 shares of the stocks I trade gets as much notice as a raindrop in the ocean.
Given the way I trade, it requires _NO_EXTRA_ skill, just more equity so that the risk/per trade is kept constant.
Who said that anyone is going to make me successful? I was born to trade. But if you are referring to my comments that if I hung out with Don/Bob/Earl I would be even more profitable - it is a certainty that it would be true _FOR_ME_.
Hitman, every statement we make is a reflection of our inner selves. I believe that you believe what you said above (tho, I am beginning to question your "strength and honor" and the purity of your heart,) but I assure you, making $500,000/year (before taxes) is a dream for me, but no more than any other dream that I have accomplished. I do hear _YOU_ that it will be difficult _FOR_YOU_. I am not trying to get one up on you, just trying to make you realize that we tend to bend "reality" into what we are, not see it for what it _IS_.
nitro
***Pffft. I am talking about going from 500 shares to 2000-2500 in SP 100 stocks, many of them DOW components - I have seen your journals and I see that you trade low volume stocks - trading 2000 shares of the stocks I trade gets as much notice as a raindrop in the ocean.***
Doesn't matter, wait until you actually TRADE 2000 share positions regularly, you will be in for a nasty surprise. Anyone who actually did that much size can tell you IT IS NOT SO EASY. You WILL notice a difference in term of fills. You WILL feel a lot more pressure. There is no magic switch that you can turn on and off magically to quadruple your size overnight.
***Given the way I trade, it requires _NO_EXTRA_ skill, just more equity so that the risk/per trade is kept constant.***
More equity would be something you get at Worldco, how the hell does Bright offer more equity? All they give you is 10x-20x margin and guess what it simply means your mistakes hurt 10x as much and once you blow your account you are out.
If 500 shares is all you have been trading then it is best to NOT talk about how easy it is to make 500K a year until YOU ACTUALLY DO IT YOURSELF. And I don't care how you trade, nobody can magically trade quadruple the size they are comfortable with, it is a very slow and gradual process.
And how long have you been out of action? Have you been trading at all past 3 months? This year's 500K is the equivalent of 1 million last year, especially if you are doing those large caps.
That said, if you ever blow your account at Bright with quadruple margin, Worldco will always offer you a second chance, recruiting the biggest Bright bandwagoner other than Donnie himself would be a huge accomplishment for us.
Doesn't matter, wait until you actually TRADE 2000 share positions regularly, you will be in for a nasty surprise. Anyone who actually did that much size can tell you IT IS NOT SO EASY. You WILL notice a difference in term of fills. You WILL feel a lot more pressure. There is no magic switch that you can turn on and off magically to quadruple your size overnight.
***Given the way I trade, it requires _NO_EXTRA_ skill, just more equity so that the risk/per trade is kept constant.***
More equity would be something you get at Worldco, how the hell does Bright offer more equity? All they give you is 10x-20x margin and guess what it simply means your mistakes hurt 10x as much and once you blow your account you are out.
If 500 shares is all you have been trading then it is best to NOT talk about how easy it is to make 500K a year until YOU ACTUALLY DO IT YOURSELF. And I don't care how you trade, nobody can magically trade quadruple the size they are comfortable with, it is a very slow and gradual process.
And how long have you been out of action? Have you been trading at all past 3 months? This year's 500K is the equivalent of 1 million last year, especially if you are doing those large caps.
That said, if you ever blow your account at Bright with quadruple margin, Worldco will always offer you a second chance, recruiting the biggest Bright bandwagoner other than Donnie himself would be a huge accomplishment for us.
OK - you are correct, I don't know this _YET_.
NO! No more pressure - I am a machine Hitman - you do not understand. Further, who said I was going to quadruple my size overnight? Read the post, I am going to double come June/July, and then, _IF_AND_WHEN_I_JOIN_PROP_, I will quadruple my size from here, that is, 2000-2500 shares. In fact, on some of the stocks that I trade, I would have no problem trading 10000 shares, as I know I can get out for a penny or two below/above the _WHOLE_DAY_. But then again, you'll just say that I have not done it, and that "knowing" is not _KNOWING_, and you would be correct.
Well, again you got me there, as I have not done it -
Yeah, but so may Bright. I know of someone who blew up their account at Bright. He did everything right (maybe, IMHO, he was a tad too aggresive,) but blew up on the GE/HON merger. _HOWEVER_, Bob was so sure of this young mans' talent, that he backed him himself. As of Sep '01, he was up $800,000.
The point is, I will end up with whomever gives me the best rates. Since I am not a superstar, I will most likely have to settle for the typical .085c - .095c /share that most get. I have several friends that trade at Schoenfeld, and I can get an interview and a "job" there in a heart beat. But one thing is certain, I would rather get my stake back to $25k and go somewhere where I get to keep 100%, than a Schoenfeld or WorldCo deal where I get some percentage of my earnings. The _ONLY_ way I would do this, is:
1) after doing some arithmetic, and noticing that I had reached a peak in my trading, that I would come out ahead in my trading by going to a WorldCo or a Schoenfeld, even after the "haircut."
2) But this would almost certainly be because of a commission/profit per share comparison, not because I couldn't come up with $25k.
In fact, a friend went to Schoenfeld for reason 1 and 2 above.
nitro
***Yeah, but so would Bright. I know of someone who blew up their account at Bright.***
And my best friend at work was down 30K after commissions (but up before commissions), and Walter reseted his account to zero as he was about to leave for a competitor (from there he generated at least 50K's worth of revenue for the firm). You think Bob and Walter does this kind of things to "help talented young men"? They do it to keep their commission machines.
The environment got a lot tougher, I don't see anyone getting the same treatment my friend did, and I don't see Bright backing traders because of "talent".
***The point is, I will end up with whomever gives me the best rates.***
Ahh, now we are talking.
***Since I am not a superstar, I will most likely have to settle for the typical .085c - .095c /share that most get.***
To get 0.9 cent a share at Bright, you need to do 400K a month, or 10K shares each way every day, at 500 shares that will be 20 trades a day. To get 0.85 cent a share you need to have double that. Is that the kind of volume you do?
***But one thing is certain, I would rather get my stake back to $25k***
Hold on a second there, sounds like you took a slight hit in your stake? My understanding is raising your stake back to 25K is not enough, afterall you are vulnerable to small losing streaks that whack you right below it. Realistically you need at least 30K in your account so one bad streak won't send you back below that dreaded mark.
***and go somewhere where I get to keep 100%, than a Schoenfeld or WorldCo deal where I get some percentage of my earnings.***
At Worldco, since you come loaded with experience, and you will probably put up some capital (not the 25K obviously, but something), I can guarantee 90%+, it is not "some" percentage, it is literally all of it.
***2) But this would almost certainly be because of a commission/profit per share comparison, not because I couldn't come up with $25k.***
If you are putting up 25K (or something close to that), I will talk to Walter and we will let you have at least 95% of your profit (probably higher), what hell, if you are going to take the full risk we can let you have everything to and be happy with your commissions since you are pushing your size to 2K
And if you can show us something with your volume / record on it, we WILL BEAT ANY OTHER OFFER BY AT LEAST 0.05 CENT A SHARE. And as I mentioned, many many times before, Worldco provides capital, Bright does not.
And you have the option of putting up half of 25K, or even quarter of it, show us your record, and still get a deal that is at least comparable to Bright's, and there is no desk fee, and your trading size will NOT be limited by your capital but your raw performance. (I have a guy on my team who traded 3 years before, couldn't show us a record so started with 200 shares put down 1K, he is already doing 800 shares 6 positions after less than 3 weeks, if he doesn't blow up by the end of the month he could see 2000 shares).
And while I am nowhere near Bob/Earl/Donnie's level, I am the only team leader on this planet who gives his real time P&L / position manager login to his teammates, everyone get to see exactly what I trade, how I trade it, and if you see potential in me, you know how big this could be a few years from now as I climb the ladder, and I am always there every day until 6-7PM.'
Now I understand you may not even be in the New York area, since Don is still on the way for a speedy recovery I doubt anyone will complain to mother on a Saturday night, who knows, maybe someone else will be interested.
And my best friend at work was down 30K after commissions (but up before commissions), and Walter reseted his account to zero as he was about to leave for a competitor (from there he generated at least 50K's worth of revenue for the firm). You think Bob and Walter does this kind of things to "help talented young men"? They do it to keep their commission machines.
The environment got a lot tougher, I don't see anyone getting the same treatment my friend did, and I don't see Bright backing traders because of "talent".
***The point is, I will end up with whomever gives me the best rates.***
Ahh, now we are talking.
***Since I am not a superstar, I will most likely have to settle for the typical .085c - .095c /share that most get.***
To get 0.9 cent a share at Bright, you need to do 400K a month, or 10K shares each way every day, at 500 shares that will be 20 trades a day. To get 0.85 cent a share you need to have double that. Is that the kind of volume you do?
***But one thing is certain, I would rather get my stake back to $25k***
Hold on a second there, sounds like you took a slight hit in your stake? My understanding is raising your stake back to 25K is not enough, afterall you are vulnerable to small losing streaks that whack you right below it. Realistically you need at least 30K in your account so one bad streak won't send you back below that dreaded mark.
***and go somewhere where I get to keep 100%, than a Schoenfeld or WorldCo deal where I get some percentage of my earnings.***
At Worldco, since you come loaded with experience, and you will probably put up some capital (not the 25K obviously, but something), I can guarantee 90%+, it is not "some" percentage, it is literally all of it.
***2) But this would almost certainly be because of a commission/profit per share comparison, not because I couldn't come up with $25k.***
If you are putting up 25K (or something close to that), I will talk to Walter and we will let you have at least 95% of your profit (probably higher), what hell, if you are going to take the full risk we can let you have everything to and be happy with your commissions since you are pushing your size to 2K
And if you can show us something with your volume / record on it, we WILL BEAT ANY OTHER OFFER BY AT LEAST 0.05 CENT A SHARE. And as I mentioned, many many times before, Worldco provides capital, Bright does not.
And you have the option of putting up half of 25K, or even quarter of it, show us your record, and still get a deal that is at least comparable to Bright's, and there is no desk fee, and your trading size will NOT be limited by your capital but your raw performance. (I have a guy on my team who traded 3 years before, couldn't show us a record so started with 200 shares put down 1K, he is already doing 800 shares 6 positions after less than 3 weeks, if he doesn't blow up by the end of the month he could see 2000 shares).
And while I am nowhere near Bob/Earl/Donnie's level, I am the only team leader on this planet who gives his real time P&L / position manager login to his teammates, everyone get to see exactly what I trade, how I trade it, and if you see potential in me, you know how big this could be a few years from now as I climb the ladder, and I am always there every day until 6-7PM.'
Now I understand you may not even be in the New York area, since Don is still on the way for a speedy recovery I doubt anyone will complain to mother on a Saturday night, who knows, maybe someone else will be interested.
I would tend to agree with Hitman on this on but with a few caveats. $500K/yr works out to be $2500/day, which on paper doesn't sound that "difficult" to do. But in reality, in a intraday environment where most daytraders are just scalping for nickels and dimes it's actually quite difficult.
I've seen guys at my firm who used to regularly make $1000/day net now are down net negative(gross positive, but after commission negative) every day or net positive only a few hundred dollars. So, to be consistently up every single day with $2500/day seems very hard.
But that's NOT the only way to get to $500K/yr. One can do intraday swing or a few days/weeks swing trading. So, instead of scalping for nickels, you can try to hold for larger moves like 20-50cents intraday. Or 1-5pts over a few days. Then you might have a chance at it. Hey, that's how institutions make their money. Buying hundreds of thousands of shares or even millions at the large funds, then holding on for months at time even. But they are graded on a RETURNS basis(% percentage) NOT on a dollar basis. So, a $1B fund might be up only 5%(which is pathetic) but in dollar terms that's like $50M. So, it's a different perspective for them.
But as a daytrading you don't have that luxury because:
1) you are undercapitalized - you don't have a few hundred millions to let stocks wiggle and move against you a few points
2) your are pyschologically handicapped b/c of years of just scalping for nickels make you want to cut your winners short and let your losers run
But I still think it's possible for the prop trader to do 500K/yr but he has to start thinking BIGGER and screw the "noise".
But I have yet to met an intraday trader that has those qualities yet(including myself unfortunately.. hehe). I'm trying to work to thinking like I used to when I was in the institutional environment. But that's more like investing, not short-term speculation/trading.
Perhaps, the trick it to somehow blend the two...
But in all honesty, if it was that EASY to make $500K/yr daytrading, then all the specialist, market-makers, and fund managers would just quit their institutional jobs and daytrade then. Even though they manage hundreds of millions or trading for firms with position in millions/billions, they only get a nice 6 figure salary with bonuses and at the very SENIOR level(8-10yrs exp) and if they do make it to partner/managing director then they get $500K-$1M total comp. And these are well educated, well credential people at some of the most respected and well capitalized firms on the Street.
Hope this will put things in perspective as to the challenges we faced as intraday traders. I'm one of these institutional people who thinks that this prop trading maybe a shortcut to instant wealth. But I'm beginning to have my doubts. But I'll work at it a little more to see if it's possible.. Don't want to give up so early in the game.. If not then back to the institutional world I go...
good luck to all of us!
trader99