Coming to terms with my feelings. Long, sorry.

Tony Stark said:
For certain groups like native americans,blacks and even poor whites US rule were not so amazing during those times,or even now.
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Still better than being an overtaxed beaten down colony of a monarchy :). If you are complaining that the U.S. government and early years were not utopia I cannot help you there ;).
 
While I didn't dare read all 95 pages of this thread, I'm a bit fascinated by the time lap between then and today and truly interested in learning how Tsing Tao lived Trump's election, his attempted coup and his comeuppance after such dramatic temper tantrum over Obama's election and the drastic decisions he made affecting his life, family and friends because Mitt Romney lost the election. Mitt Romney!
 
El OchoCinco said:
Wrecking history? They dont belong glorified they belong in museums of the history. There is nothing subjective about taking up arms against your country because you want to keep the institution of slavery around.
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And we're back to slavery again. Round and round we go, I guess. I'll try once more.

Not everyone that fought for the south was all about protecting slavery. This is a narrative that people have believed because it was told over and over again - just like we should have 50% of our calories from carbs.

I'm not denying slavery was a part - even a big part. But if people actually understood the motivations behind some of the more prominent generals and why they were fighting what they believed was an institution deciding their destiny - just as the colonists were doing. As a result, having a statue or two remembering a soldier, or a general, and hell - even labeling it appropriately teaches history. Its not just about honoring.

But go ahead, tell me more about slavery so I can tune out.
 
El OchoCinco said:
Well they all were to some extent but we can look at what Washington and Jefferson did for the country formation and early years while recognizing their personal hypocrisy with slavery.
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Right, so should we tear down all statues of all founding fathers because they had slaves? I mean, that's the one-track mind approach, right? Tear down all statues of Washington or Jefferson, right? Just because they owned slaves, and slavery was evil - nevermind the other things they did in life.
 
Tsing Tao said:
And we're back to slavery again. Round and round we go, I guess. I'll try once more.

Not everyone that fought for the south was all about protecting slavery. This is a narrative that people have believed because it was told over and over again - just like we should have 50% of our calories from carbs.

I'm not denying slavery was a part - even a big part. But if people actually understood the motivations behind some of the more prominent generals and why they were fighting what they believed was an institution deciding their destiny - just as the colonists were doing. As a result, having a statue or two remembering a soldier, or a general, and hell - even labeling it appropriately teaches history. Its not just about honoring.

But go ahead, tell me more about slavery so I can tune out.
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You have a nuanced opinion on the subject.

Remembering our history is important, where is the line between celebrating the best or worst parts of our past?
 
Tsing Tao said:
Many states waive the fee for state ID cards if the applicant can prove they are homeless or in poverty. Florida waives it for the homeless. The reason people don't get the cards is predominantly because they just don't care. And they're not interested in voting (or bank accounts, or flying, etc). If they cared, they'd get one. It disadvantages no one. Unless you want to show me specific examples of people claiming they cannot vote because they cannot get an ID card. As a reference, please see the cost and availability of state ID cards by state, and available support programs here.

If people wanted to vote, they'd get a card. Democrats use this as an excuse because it is to their advantage to have non-citizens vote, or ballot stuffing, or whatever.
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Thank you for the reference, this is new information for me and I can update my mental model about ID access.

However you are painting with a broad brush of whether someone "cares" or not.

Here's a typical example of someone who suddenly has no access to ID;

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/resear.../without-id-homeless-trapped-in-vicious-cycle



Tsing Tao said:
If there is a way to determine whether the person who mailed the vote is the person who was entitled to do so, I'd be fine with it. Like a notary (some states require this). But you can't prove that everyone who sends in a mail in vote is the person who is supposed to vote that ballot. I cannot prove that everyone isn't. But I believe that people commit crimes and if they believe they won't be caught, they'll do it. If you wish to believe in the nobility of the human spirit in all cases, I have a bridge to sell you.
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I can't speak for all states but for mine; yes, in the process one has to provide photo ID prior to getting a Voter registration card. These are connected to a residential address which then a ballot is mailed to you with a deadline for return. The returned ballot then has to match a signature that is on file.

Hard to imagine how such a system can be gamed on a widespread level. At some point, I imagine we as individuals could actually verify that our vote was correctly counted.

We are in agreement that having greater integrity in our elections is of mutual benefit. Your prior assertions of ID requirements for other services are noted and quite reasonable.


Tsing Tao said:
Sure. Please see the Princeton project on Gerrymandering and this article from very left leaning Vox (which you should find as an acceptable source). Found with very little effort of research.
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The Princeton link was informative, thank you.

From the Vox link;
"Basically, Democrats saved themselves by resorting to a tactic they’ve previously denounced as not only unfair but downright unethical — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called gerrymandering “unjust and deeply dangerous” in 2019. But in the absence of national reforms banning the practice, refusing to gerrymander would have meant effective unilateral disarmament, ceding the GOP a significant advantage in the battle for control over the House."

Your supplied references led me to ask "when did gerrymandering start?"
 
If I can interject... I'm an avowed social and business liberal, that is I believe in global trade and don't support unions. I vote Democratic but would prefer to be defined as a liberal republican but, unfortunately, American politics is stifling.
I believe that democracy involves rights and responsibilities, the first of which is to gather the necessary documents to vote. Obtaining a government ID should be free to those who can't afford to pay for one, but it is the individual's responsibility to present one at the voting booth to prove who you are. There are plenty of non profits to go around to help those too whatever to get their ID, but removing that requirement is wrong.

On southern pride and reminiscing of their great heroes, I call bs that stinks of neo Nazi glorification. The confederate flag and soldiers fought to maintain slavery, period. You can try to paint a lyrical version of the southern Belle and her grey uniform suiter strolling the plantations where black labor sang songs while picking cotton but that's exactly the image that no one believes anymore, except for southern white supremacists. Reality is that the education system in the southern states never addressed racism and slavery properly, because there is no federal education, only state and county controlled curriculum. So white racists could hold on to their views and blacks could just stfu.
 
They were fucking traitors who attacked the U.S. government and killed U.S. troops...
Most of the statutues were put up by white racists to remind the Blacks who controlled Jim Crow laws...

My God U.S. history classes must have sucked when some of you were in school....
 
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