College Students and Other Future Traders

Thanks for the wisdom. As a new trader I vouch for all the chasing and lack of patience. In addition, I find myself having having difficulty sticking to any one system. I started in February and I have come a long way in dealing with these issues. With experience they are more controllable but remaining focused is truly a challenge. Some day grasshopper.....

Jorge
 
Quote from jorgemb:

Thanks for the wisdom. As a new trader I vouch for all the chasing and lack of patience. In addition, I find myself having having difficulty sticking to any one system. I started in February and I have come a long way in dealing with these issues. With experience they are more controllable but remaining focused is truly a challenge. Some day grasshopper.....

Jorge
More...

Jorge, you have the right attitude. Anyone can (and will, and maybe even should) make the errors. Recognizing that you have committed them is the key.

February was not very long ago.

Having difficulty sticking to "any one system" is not really a problem IMO for a new trader. Try a little of everything. Just do small trades and strive to "lose less". Eventually you will find what is "comfortable" for you.

I don't like the term "system" (although I acknowledge people do attempt to use them and believe in them). I prefer the word "style". To me, we each develop our own "style" which is really a blending of technique, strategy (system?), personality, preference and available funding and technology. And the ability to actually use the technology. I had a Bloomberg machine and really had very little knowledge to take advantage of the thing).

I have seen great traders use incredibly complex computer systems with lots of screens and lots of charts and oscillators, and formulas, and custom written software, and on and on.

I also knew a terrific trader that never looked at a chart ever. He used a single screen with quotes on it and that was it. He didn't even know how to use his order entry system, but he had a clerk do that for him. This particular guy actually was very instrumental in assisting Steven Schonfeld with HIS learning how to trade. They were boyhood friends.

I knew another trader.....a truly huge player that would call his clerk on the phone, ask her what some prices and some indices were, and would tell her what to do from his car phone. This guy is a true legend.

The only measurable thing he had on the rest of us was experience. And confidence. And these are things that naturally come with time. (Sadly, no shortcuts here).

Peace,
:)RS
 
Every statement made by every person in the history of the world is making a statement not about "Objective Reality" but about THEIR view of reality. Take for example how we see colors. It is "known" that the experience of seeing color is as individual as we are.

So, for error going to school is important. For P2 is was not and a waste of time.

For nitro, there are only some things you can do well when you are young, and learning is one of them. Don't just go to school to learn, but seek out the truly remarkable professors and take classes from them - whether they be Noble Prize winners, Fields Medalists, Mcarthur winners, Rhodes Scholars, whatever - It doesn't even matter what the subject matter is. I GUARANTEE you, if you are lucky enough to get what this person has to offer, it will change your life.

Trading is easy. Wait until you can't do anything else to go for it. Just make sure that you have stashed enough money to give it a try when you are ready. Learn to shave on someone else's face if you can, otherwise if you go in the water raw, be ready to get nibbled at by sharks all after your money - and they WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY WHEN YOU FIRST START.

BTW, I doubt the Oxford guy was for real. Go to any top school and you will see Wall Street ALL OVER THE PLACE LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYEES. Further, a school like Oxford has a dean and a counselor who is well connected to Wall Street/London Exchanges. Either the guy is lonely and wanted to make conversation, is an idiot, or s/he is a fake.

Error, I agree with 99.999% of everything you said.

nitro
 
Quote from nitro:



So, for error going to school is important. For P2 is was not and a waste of time.
More...


Important to me for the following reasons.....not for trading, (as it was not for P2), but for the reasons you yourself state right here:

For nitro, there are only some things you can do well when you are young, and learning is one of them. Don't just go to school to learn, but seek out the truly remarkable professors and take classes from them - whether they be Noble Prize winners, Fields Medalists, Mcarthur winners, Rhodes Scholars, whatever - It doesn't even matter what the subject matter is. I GUARANTEE you, if you are lucky enough to get what this person has to offer, it will change your life.
More...


Then there is this:

BTW, I doubt the Oxford guy was for real. Go to any top school and you will see Wall Street ALL OVER THE PLACE LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYEES. Further, a school like Oxford has a dean and a conselour who is well connected to Wall Street/London Exchanges. Either the guy is an idiot, or he is a fake.

nitro
More...

All of which is exactly true. But of all the Wall Street recruiters, and all the connections the faculty has, still, no one walks out of school and into a trading position. There are a lot of jobs on Wall Street. And a huge demand for qualified personnel. But trading other people's money?

Nitro....you yourself right now are far more qualified to trade with discretion than any untested Rhodes Scholar. Oxford, Wharton, it all is very impressive. But not for certain endeavors. Like trading.

Hell Nitro...you know as well as I do who works on the floors in Chicago. "Trading Places" was probably more realistic (when Louis and Billy-Ray were on a roll) than our friend the "Oxford Guy's" expectations. (If the whole thing was not a skit by FPC or one of the usual "unusual and too bored with no life" suspects).

Hey, BTW, when are you gonna capitalize on your solid trading results? (I heard they are closing the Chicago Schonfeld office....when are you coming down here? )

Peace Bro,
RS
 
Quote from nitro:

Every statement made by every person in the history of the world is making a statement not about "Objective Reality" but about THEIR view of reality. Take for example how we see colors. It is "known" that the experience of seeing color is as individual as we are.

So, for error going to school is important. For P2 is was not and a waste of time.

For nitro, there are only some things you can do well when you are young, and learning is one of them. Don't just go to school to learn, but seek out the truly remarkable professors and take classes from them - whether they be Noble Prize winners, Fields Medalists, Mcarthur winners, Rhodes Scholars, whatever - It doesn't even matter what the subject matter is. I GUARANTEE you, if you are lucky enough to get what this person has to offer, it will change your life.

Trading is easy. Wait until you can't do anything else to go for it. Just make sure that you have stashed enough money to give it a try when you are ready. Learn to shave on someone else's face if you can, otherwise if you go in the water raw, be ready to get nibbled at by sharks all after your money - and they WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY WHEN YOU FIRST START.

BTW, I doubt the Oxford guy was for real. Go to any top school and you will see Wall Street ALL OVER THE PLACE LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYEES. Further, a school like Oxford has a dean and a counselor who is well connected to Wall Street/London Exchanges. Either the guy is lonely and wanted to make conversation, is an idiot, or s/he is a fake.

Error, I agree with 99.999% of everything you said.

nitro
More...

Nitro,

I agreed with you totally. Trading is an all encompassing great PASSION in my life now! And probably will ALWAYS be.

But, I'm glad I invested my time and energy in the quality of education I had. Not that I'm boasting or anything, but I felt it was a good exposure. Where else can you take math classes from the top professors in the field of algebra, topology, analysis, combinatorics, etc. , talk to Franco Modigliani(Nobel Prize in Economics), meet John Cox of Cox-Rubinstein option pricing model, take classes with a rising finance star like Prof Andrew Lo,(who Wall Street call on regularly for expensive consulting), take electrical engineering and computer science courses with people who LITERALLY invented the field of AI, digital signal processing, cryptography, theory of computation, and meet the rising stars in biology and biotech (David Baltimore, Nobel Prize in bio was at MIT too) ALL IN ONE CAMPUS! MIT was hell academically but it was all worth it. Students likened to it as drinking water out of a FIRE HYDRANT! haha. But what else should I spend my time from the age of 17-21?? Trading? Banging on the keyboards trying to learn to trade? There's plenty time for that. But your youth comes only once.

You wrote,"BTW, I doubt the Oxford guy was for real. Go to any top school and you will see Wall Street ALL OVER THE PLACE LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYEES. Further, a school like Oxford has a dean and a counselor who is well connected to Wall Street/London Exchanges. Either the guy is lonely and wanted to make conversation, is an idiot, or s/he is a fake."

I don't know if FP was fake or not, but many good schools have career centers that are more than willing to help you with job search and provide info. GS, Merrill, MSDW, Bear, Lehman, CSFB, and everyone on the Street all recruited heavily on campus at MIT and tons of other top schools. They do their first rounds on campus, then 2nd rounds they fly you to NYC all expense paid with hotel accommodations, lunches, dinners, etc. for 2nd and 3rd rounds of interview. I mean this is normal at most top schools. So, I'm assuming Oxford would have their fair share of Street firms recruiting on campus. It's not that big of a deal. You just signed up at the career center, drop off your resume, and if they like you they will give you a call for first rounds on campus. duh. No need to go on a mesg board to ask these questions. Wow. That was years ago. Glad I did the Stree thing, the buy side thing, the quant thing, and now the prop thing.

However, I must admit prop trading is the PUREST form of trading of them all. There are plenty of people on Wall Street who get paid well but probably can't trade out of a paperbag. Like the Henry Blodget of the world. Analysts who got tens of millions during the bull market. Or just your good quant research guy pulling in 300K-500K/yr but never put on a single trade. Or market makers pulling 500-750K/yr but do you really call that trading when you are just quoting bid/ask? Or senior M&A guys making a $1M/yr. Or even my ex-boss at Merrill who was chief strategist and probably made a few million year writing general pieces or calls on the market to institutional clients. Those who worked at MER institutional desk probably know me now.. haha. Can't hide under a screen name for too long. But that was 7 yrs ago though, and I've worked many other firms since. haha.

So, it's good to save up some $(from other previous high paying jobs) and study the market and trade in small amounts while you are getting beaten up as a trader. haha. Everybody has to make mistakes in order to learn it firsthand. Trading "feel" has to be in your blood and the only way for that to happen is through "Screen time". And the beauty of prop trading is that once you mastered it, making $1K-$5K/day is possible and it can be all yours! Not just some salary like on Street.

anyhow, nitro, thanks for pointing out it so clearly.

-99
 
Quote from Error 404:



Important to me for the following reasons.....not for trading, (as it was not for P2), but for the reasons you yourself state right here:

[/b]

Then there is this:



All of which is exactly true. But of all the Wall Street recruiters, and all the connections the faculty has, still, no one walks out of school and into a trading position. There are a lot of jobs on Wall Street. And a huge demand for qualified personnel. But trading other people's money?

Nitro....you yourself right now are far more qualified to trade with discretion than any untested Rhodes Scholar. Oxford, Wharton, it all is very impressive. But not for certain endeavors. Like trading.

Hell Nitro...you know as well as I do who works on the floors in Chicago. "Trading Places" was probably more realistic (when Louis and Billy-Ray were on a roll) than our friend the "Oxford Guy's" expectations. (If the whole thing was not a skit by FPC or one of the usual "unusual and too bored with no life" suspects).

Hey, BTW, when are you gonna capitalize on your solid trading results? (I heard they are closing the Chicago Schonfeld office....when are you coming down here? )

Peace Bro,
RS
More...
RS, Again I agree with you 99.9999% of everything you say.

As to capatilizing on my trading results, I thought I did that every day! :D I know what you mean though.

I may be coming to Walt Disney soon (FALL ?,) as I have a six year old and she is itching to go. At the end of the trip, perhaps I can swing down and meet you at your office and we can do lunch, etc.

nitro
 
Quote from trader99:



Nitro,

I agreed with you totally. Trading is an all encompassing great PASSION in my life now! And probably will ALWAYS be.

But, I'm glad I invested my time and energy in the quality of education I had. Not that I'm boasting or anything, but I felt it was a good exposure. Where else can you take math classes from the top professors in the field of algebra, topology, analysis, combinatorics, etc. , talk to Franco Modigliani(Nobel Prize in Economics), meet John Cox of Cox-Rubinstein option pricing model, take classes with a rising finance star like Prof Andrew Lo,(who Wall Street call on regularly for expensive consulting), take electrical engineering and computer science courses with people who LITERALLY invented the field of AI, digital signal processing, cryptography, theory of computation, and meet the rising stars in biology and biotech (David Baltimore, Nobel Prize in bio was at MIT too) ALL IN ONE CAMPUS! MIT was hell academically but it was all worth it. Students likened to it as drinking water out of a FIRE HYDRANT! haha. But what else should I spend my time from the age of 17-21?? Trading? Banging on the keyboards trying to learn to trade? There's plenty time for that. But your youth comes only once.

You wrote,"BTW, I doubt the Oxford guy was for real. Go to any top school and you will see Wall Street ALL OVER THE PLACE LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE EMPLOYEES. Further, a school like Oxford has a dean and a counselor who is well connected to Wall Street/London Exchanges. Either the guy is lonely and wanted to make conversation, is an idiot, or s/he is a fake."

I don't know if FP was fake or not, but many good schools have career centers that are more than willing to help you with job search and provide info. GS, Merrill, MSDW, Bear, Lehman, CSFB, and everyone on the Street all recruited heavily on campus at MIT and tons of other top schools. They do their first rounds on campus, then 2nd rounds they fly you to NYC all expense paid with hotel accommodations, lunches, dinners, etc. for 2nd and 3rd rounds of interview. I mean this is normal at most top schools. So, I'm assuming Oxford would have their fair share of Street firms recruiting on campus. It's not that big of a deal. You just signed up at the career center, drop off your resume, and if they like you they will give you a call for first rounds on campus. duh. No need to go on a mesg board to ask these questions. Wow. That was years ago. Glad I did the Stree thing, the buy side thing, the quant thing, and now the prop thing.

However, I must admit prop trading is the PUREST form of trading of them all. There are plenty of people on Wall Street who get paid well but probably can't trade out of a paperbag. Like the Henry Blodget of the world. Analysts who got tens of millions during the bull market. Or just your good quant research guy pulling in 300K-500K/yr but never put on a single trade. Or market makers pulling 500-750K/yr but do you really call that trading when you are just quoting bid/ask? Or senior M&A guys making a $1M/yr. Or even my ex-boss at Merrill who was chief strategist and probably made a few million year writing general pieces or calls on the market to institutional clients. Those who worked at MER institutional desk probably know me now.. haha. Can't hide under a screen name for too long. But that was 7 yrs ago though, and I've worked many other firms since. haha.

So, it's good to save up some $(from other previous high paying jobs) and study the market and trade in small amounts while you are getting beaten up as a trader. haha. Everybody has to make mistakes in order to learn it firsthand. Trading "feel" has to be in your blood and the only way for that to happen is through "Screen time". And the beauty of prop trading is that once you mastered it, making $1K-$5K/day is possible and it can be all yours! Not just some salary like on Street.

anyhow, nitro, thanks for pointing out it so clearly.

-99
More...
99,

If I could have had the chances you had and TOOK, I would be one happy(ier) camper.

A background like yours can only be dreamed of by most if not all here on ET.

nitro
 
Again, thanks for the info. I'm pretty much doing what you recommend and the small trades and tight money management have been the keys to be able to remain in the process. It's a whole new world for me and I really enjoy all the searching and learning. Just one note, when you first start, the emotional highs and lows are incredible and you learn humility real quick. The old ego really takes a hammering!! Now, the reactivity is not as strong and objectivity comes much easier.


Good Luck to all

Jorge
 
Quote from nitro:


99,

If I could have had the chances you had and TOOK, I would be one happy(ier) camper.

A background like yours can only be dreamed of by most if not all here on ET.

nitro
More...

Nitro,

Thanks for the compliments. But life isn't as good in my shoes as you imagined it to be. I have had my ups and downs(a lot of that as well). People should live their own lives to the fullest and not try to imagine other people's lives. Anyhow, the last 1.5yrs of prop trading was quite a challenge. I'm glad I was able to adapt, change, and moving toward some form of consistency. But not to the level I'm happy with yet... But there's HOPE. :)

It was a lot of hard work. But you know what? When I started doing prop trading, NONE of my formal education matters. ZIPPO! Nada. HAHA. I shouldn't said none of it. A few things helped me with formalizing a valid strategy and testing it. But you definitely didn't need to go to MIT to learn that. haha. But as I said before, education should be for learning sake. There's more to life than just money.

Anyhow, I felt like a total beginner again. It was very frustrating. Because daytrading is at a much faster pace and you have to make decisions, learn TA, read the tape, etc etc. Whereas most institutional jobs, you have a much longer time horizon so you are not glued to the screen and have to make split second decisions all the time.


It wasn't until recently, that I adapted to the pace of daytrading and ironically "slowed" time down by adopting a bit longer time frame though still intraday. That's the only way for ME to ride through the noise and pull decent points out of the market.

It's still an uphill battle. But I can see it ahead. Hopefully I'll get there. Hopefully, we'll all get there.

good luck trading!

-99
 
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