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College Students and Grads.
- Thread starter Don Bright
- Start date
Quote from OPTIONAL777:
Psychological testing is applied to all types of people who undergo stress in their jobs, from policemen to air traffic controllers.
To assume that trading, when real money is on the line, not simulations or paper trading, doesn't generate stress and thus impact decision making for a trader is absurd.
It is foolish, and irresponsible in my opinion not to test those who want to be traders, to help them see their psychological weaknesses.
If Bright trading was investing in traders, rather making money off of the investments of the traders, win or lose, they would employ a more rigorous method of screening and testing before they put their money at risk.
First, psychological testing is not applied to all types of people who undergo stress in the workplace. Maybe you misstated what you meant. But I worked in the corporate world for 15 years before becoming a trader and I had a LOT of corporate stress. And I certainly was never "tested".
Next, it's my belief that trading shops do make traders well aware that they can, and often will, lose money. Geez, after all the hype in the mid 90's I think they got the message. If not mistaken, there were plenty of lawsuits and some of the shops paid decent sized fines I think. And in your statement above I don't think ANYONE said trading did NOT generate stress. Anyone who's been at it for a while knows it does. We all get butterflies; no different than pro athletes.
Should we then have people take psychological tests before they can enter a casino in Vegas or Atlantic City? How about testing anyone who wants to buy lottery tickets? Perhaps those who bet on horses, football games, basketball games, etc. etc. etc. There's certainly stress in those forms of putting money at risk.
I think Optional777 really made his point in the last couple of posts. If Don is confident in the results his "Training Academy" produces, why then is he not allowing traders to attend free and post their trading capital? It would pay off big for him. So, that shows me that no "trading system" is sure enough so that even a schmuck could do it or if it was that simple all trading would be automatically. The lack of automatic trading tells me that it comes down to the trader making the decisions. Traders say they follow a strategy to make their trades, but again if its all strategy and technical analysis, then why is not Don hiring a computer programmer to create an automatic trading system following the strategy he teaches in his $1,000 academy?
It surprises me that so much emphasis is placed on where a potential trader went to school when applying for a REAL prop trading position. To paraphrase Liars Poker-If you all were not trading bonds, you'd be driving trucks. Don't get too intellectual about the market. The frustrating thing is that no one seems to look into potential of what Caltrader mentioned, sharp and teachable.
I read a book about chefs and one chef said he'd take a worker with a third grade education over a grad from a prestigious academy anyday because the "less educated" would do what he asked day in and day out exactly as he asked him to do it. Whereas the academy grad would have the balls to make suggestions to the experienced teacher and change things for the sake of changing them to justify their education.
Caltrader-out of curiousity from previous posts it seems like you hire traders, who has made the best traders? Ivy League grads? High School grads only?
My point-If Don is confident in the system his academy teaches, then why not fund their training and account? If only 25% make it from the lessons they've learned from the academy, then what's wrong with this picture? Is it personality over education credentials? Why market towards college grads? Most have no money, but Don mentioned parents footing the bill. Is it the availabililty of student loans? Would utilizing their student loans to "educate" themselves seem justifiable?
It surprises me that so much emphasis is placed on where a potential trader went to school when applying for a REAL prop trading position. To paraphrase Liars Poker-If you all were not trading bonds, you'd be driving trucks. Don't get too intellectual about the market. The frustrating thing is that no one seems to look into potential of what Caltrader mentioned, sharp and teachable.
I read a book about chefs and one chef said he'd take a worker with a third grade education over a grad from a prestigious academy anyday because the "less educated" would do what he asked day in and day out exactly as he asked him to do it. Whereas the academy grad would have the balls to make suggestions to the experienced teacher and change things for the sake of changing them to justify their education.
Caltrader-out of curiousity from previous posts it seems like you hire traders, who has made the best traders? Ivy League grads? High School grads only?
My point-If Don is confident in the system his academy teaches, then why not fund their training and account? If only 25% make it from the lessons they've learned from the academy, then what's wrong with this picture? Is it personality over education credentials? Why market towards college grads? Most have no money, but Don mentioned parents footing the bill. Is it the availabililty of student loans? Would utilizing their student loans to "educate" themselves seem justifiable?
Quote from Brandonf:
Every single person I have ever met who is successful trades out of passion. All of those who wonder why they are not successful think that passion is not required.
Brandon
No doubt they trade out of passion, but it is passion for the money, and/or passion for the experiences of winning, not the process.
Nothing wrong with passion, some strong motivator is required for success in any field. People go nowhere without some drive. However, that drive need not take the form of some emotional roller coaster life, but it can take the form of dedication.
Passion generally leads people into marriage. Passion as it was first encountered with one's partner goes out of most marriages pretty quickly on the whole, but ones that succeed have replaced passion with the reality of dedication to a long term goal and a deeper understanding of the goal of marriage. In other words, I will bet on a hard working deeply committed person on the basis of understanding their commitment and what is required to have success, over some one who just feels passionately in the beginning. Same with trading, I will bet on the turtle over the hare for a long race.
My point is that there are careers where people are passionate and dedicated to their work firstly, not the end result of the work or the paycheck secondarily. Some are drawn to helping others, service industries over careers that offer only high financial rewards. Some are drawn to discovery like research scientists, etc. Some are drawn to create.
I suspect not that many people would continue trading if they only made enough money to barely survive, like a starving artist, or a teacher who love their work so much they would do it for free, or were on a fixed salary. My guess is that the majority of people don't trade for the love of the trading as much as for the love of the money.
Michael Jordan has a passion for gambling, but it is a hobby, not a career. So passion is not an indicator of future success, although it is typically found in the successful.
However despite this discussion of passion, you did not address the issues I raised about Don's "career opportunity." Don does little but sell the sizzle, rather than educating people about the real nature of the steak.
Quote from OPTIONAL777:
Until Don can screen out those who are not qualified to attempt trading, and demonstrate that his system, if qualified for, has a 75% or higher rate of success, it is just another barker selling dreams. There is a difference in my mind between selling a dream and a genuine opportunity.
Why 75%? I believe an earlier poster said that in training BT stated the success rate was 1 in 10 or 1 in 20. To divulge such up front is at least being honest.
Have you ever dealt with business brokers? I did when I considered buying a business 10 years ago. If you have an interest in a specific business they'll tell you everything you want to hear ... it's cash flow positive, great opportunity for expansion, low overhead, etc. And why do they say that ... easy, they want to sell the business and make a commission. But I understood their motives and dug deeper to find the reality about the opportunities.
If not mistaken, small business ventures have a failure rate of 80-90% in the first few years. Trading is no different ...
Quote from DHOHHI:
Why 75%? I believe an earlier poster said that in training BT stated the success rate was 1 in 10 or 1 in 20. To divulge such up front is at least being honest.
Have you ever dealt with business brokers? I did when I considered buying a business 10 years ago. If you have an interest in a specific business they'll tell you everything you want to hear ... it's cash flow positive, great opportunity for expansion, low overhead, etc. And why do they say that ... easy, they want to sell the business and make a commission. But I understood their motives and dug deeper to find the reality about the opportunities.
If not mistaken, small business ventures have a failure rate of 80-90% in the first few years. Trading is no different ...
Say I ask what the success rate is of someone offering a career path. If they respond that only 1 in 10 succeed, my follow up question is: Why only 1 in 10? Why would I necessarily succeed in beating those odds? What can you offer me to beat those odds, and can you demonstrate that your system clearly gives me an advantage over those odds?
How many of us would place a trade, if the odds were always 10 to 1 against us?
Optional: This has gotten just too silly to bother with responses. The others seem to get it.....attempt to become a trader, or don't. No big deal.
BTW, we could teach blackjack card counting, and that has a proven success history (check the MIT boys, even they did well....one of them is coming to trade). But most would fail because of themselves, not because the "system" doesn't work.
Only a few will ever succeed at anything (less than 1% make $100K/yr. overall), but that doesn't mean they should bow their head to pessimism and chronic depression.....shall we explain that to all the college grads? "Just forget it, stay in school forever"....lol
Don
BTW, we could teach blackjack card counting, and that has a proven success history (check the MIT boys, even they did well....one of them is coming to trade). But most would fail because of themselves, not because the "system" doesn't work.
Only a few will ever succeed at anything (less than 1% make $100K/yr. overall), but that doesn't mean they should bow their head to pessimism and chronic depression.....shall we explain that to all the college grads? "Just forget it, stay in school forever"....lol
Don
Quote from Don Bright:
Optional: This has gotten just too silly to bother with responses. The others seem to get it.....attempt to become a trader, or don't. No big deal.
BTW, we could teach blackjack card counting, and that has a proven success history (check the MIT boys, even they did well....one of them is coming to trade). But most would fail because of themselves, not because the "system" doesn't work.
Only a few will ever succeed at anything (less than 1% make $100K/yr. overall), but that doesn't mean they should bow their head to pessimism and chronic depression.....shall we explain that to all the college grads? "Just forget it, stay in school forever"....lol
Don
If this is too silly to bother with responses, why do you?
Quote from OPTIONAL777:
Say I ask what the success rate is of someone offering a career path. If they respond that only 1 in 10 succeed, my follow up question is: Why only 1 in 10? Why would I necessarily succeed in beating those odds? What can you offer me to beat those odds, and can you demonstrate that your system clearly gives me an advantage over those odds?
How many of us would place a trade, if the odds were always 10 to 1 against us?
I think that's why many people choose "safe" careers. To work for someone else an individual minimizes their risk personally. At the same time they've given up the entrepreneurial opportunity to realize significant gains or losses financially. But that is a choice everyone makes. As far as anyone offering a person something to beat the odds I don't think that their responsibility, whether it be General Motors or a trading firm. I think most success is a result of drive, motivation, dedication and perseverance.
And on the latter part about the 10:1 odds ... why do people buy lottery tickets? The odds are much worse in that scenario.
Quote from DHOHHI:
I think that's why many people choose "safe" careers. To work for someone else an individual minimizes their risk personally. At the same time they've given up the entrepreneurial opportunity to realize significant gains or losses financially. But that is a choice everyone makes. As far as anyone offering a person something to beat the odds I don't think that their responsibility, whether it be General Motors or a trading firm. I think mos success is a result of drive, motivation, dedication and perseverance.
And on the latter part about the 10:1 odds ... why do people buy lottery tickets? The odds are much worse in that scenario.
People buy lottery tickets for the most part because they believe in luck.
People are free to choose any career they want. I am not against freedom of choice, I am in favor of educating those who do make choices so that they can make them as intelligently and properly as possible.