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Collectivism vs. Individualism
- Thread starter Tigerjaw
- Start date
Quote from omegapoint:
When opting for the term "collectivism" to describe what it is youre driving at theres a built in bias from the get. Try substituting the term "cooperation" for it. Cooperation is what NASA does. It got the space shuttle built, it put a man on the moon. Cooperation built the freeway system. Individualism is what built the pyramids, but if you asked one of the slaves that built them if he had any use for a pyramid, if he werent in fear of his life, he'd tell you, "that pharoh is nuts." At some point you have to have faith in authority and fall in line where you can contribute your end for the sake of the civilization you participate in. I would submit that its cooperation that gets great things done.
Is our public school system so deficient nowadays ? Well maybe it is. I've talked to teens (good students) and they are taught nothing of their own national history or civics nowadays. And it seems few are taught how to actually think.
'Collectivism' and 'co-operation' have nothing to do with each other at all. This nation was founded upon the principle that human beings have God given individual rights. Collectivism tosses away that notion for a 'greater good', the 'collective'. In actuality it is individual politicians who decide how that will be defined - - for their own personal benefit, of course. If they can use the law to funnel money to their contributors or further control the voters, they will do so. (FDR funneled money into districts he wanted to carry in upcoming elections. Even loyal Dem districts - already sure supporters - didn't get money if it didnt do his campaign any good, no matter how much it was needed. And union members who wouldnt contribute to the Dem party found themselves out of a job.) The underlying reality of the use of the concept of 'the collective' is that it is used to justify the application of force to get people to do what they wouldnt do voluntarily. - - - Thus we get monstrosities like the health care bill where O. lied & promised people would get to keep their own insurance - - They will try to force people on it with the threat of fines and ultimately imprisonment. A perfect example of the collective in action. People who believed in individual rights and the Constitution would not contemplate such an outrage. - - -
When opting for the term "collectivism" to describe what it is youre driving at theres a built in bias from the get. Try substituting the term "cooperation" for it. Cooperation is what NASA does. It got the space shuttle built, it put a man on the moon. Cooperation built the freeway system. Individualism is what built the pyramids, but if you asked one of the slaves that built them if he had any use for a pyramid, if he werent in fear of his life, he'd tell you, "that pharoh is nuts." At some point you have to have faith in authority and fall in line where you can contribute your end for the sake of the civilization you participate in. I would submit that its cooperation that gets great things done.
Is our public school system so deficient nowadays ? Well maybe it is. I've talked to teens (good students) and they are taught nothing of their own national history or civics nowadays. And it seems few are taught how to actually think.
'Collectivism' and 'co-operation' have nothing to do with each other at all. This nation was founded upon the principle that human beings have God given individual rights. Collectivism tosses away that notion for a 'greater good', the 'collective'. In actuality it is individual politicians who decide how that will be defined - - for their own personal benefit, of course. If they can use the law to funnel money to their contributors or further control the voters, they will do so. (FDR funneled money into districts he wanted to carry in upcoming elections. Even loyal Dem districts - already sure supporters - didn't get money if it didnt do his campaign any good, no matter how much it was needed. And union members who wouldnt contribute to the Dem party found themselves out of a job.) The underlying reality of the use of the concept of 'the collective' is that it is used to justify the application of force to get people to do what they wouldnt do voluntarily. - - - Thus we get monstrosities like the health care bill where O. lied & promised people would get to keep their own insurance - - They will try to force people on it with the threat of fines and ultimately imprisonment. A perfect example of the collective in action. People who believed in individual rights and the Constitution would not contemplate such an outrage. - - -
Quote from Tigerjaw:
Quote from omegapoint:
When opting for the term "collectivism" to describe what it is youre driving at theres a built in bias from the get. Try substituting the term "cooperation" for it. Cooperation is what NASA does. It got the space shuttle built, it put a man on the moon. Cooperation built the freeway system. Individualism is what built the pyramids, but if you asked one of the slaves that built them if he had any use for a pyramid, if he werent in fear of his life, he'd tell you, "that pharoh is nuts." At some point you have to have faith in authority and fall in line where you can contribute your end for the sake of the civilization you participate in. I would submit that its cooperation that gets great things done.
Is our public school system so deficient nowadays ? Well maybe it is. I've talked to teens (good students) and they are taught nothing of their own national history or civics nowadays. And it seems few are taught how to actually think.
'Collectivism' and 'co-operation' have nothing to do with each other at all. This nation was founded upon the principle that human beings have God given individual rights. Collectivism tosses away that notion for a 'greater good', the 'collective'. In actuality it is individual politicians who decide how that will be defined - - for their own personal benefit, of course. If they can use the law to funnel money to their contributors or further control the voters, they will do so. (FDR funneled money into districts he wanted to carry in upcoming elections. Even loyal Dem districts - already sure supporters - didn't get money if it didnt do his campaign any good, no matter how much it was needed. And union members who wouldnt contribute to the Dem party found themselves out of a job.) The underlying reality of the use of the concept of 'the collective' is that it is used to justify the application of force to get people to do what they wouldnt do voluntarily. - - - Thus we get monstrosities like the health care bill where O. lied & promised people would get to keep their own insurance - - They will try to force people on it with the threat of fines and ultimately imprisonment. A perfect example of the collective in action. People who believed in individual rights and the Constitution would not contemplate such an outrage. - - -
Good points but we have not had a valid Constitution since c.1861.
The Nation state we have today resembles nothing of the freedom fought for by the Founding fathers.
Absent the following we are headed directly to rule by authoritarianism .
1) State's rights, including the right to nullification and succession.
2) Curtailment of federal powers to those actually enumerated in the Constitution vs the Rorschach treatment it gets today.
3) Voter or tax reform: It's clearly insane to allow voters who bear no burden of govt responsibility (ie taxation) the right to vote.
When 50% of the population pays no federal income tax you have an unresolvable systemic problem.
Quote from Tigerjaw:
Quote from omegapoint:
When opting for the term "collectivism" to describe what it is youre driving at theres a built in bias from the get. Try substituting the term "cooperation" for it. Cooperation is what NASA does. It got the space shuttle built, it put a man on the moon. Cooperation built the freeway system. Individualism is what built the pyramids, but if you asked one of the slaves that built them if he had any use for a pyramid, if he werent in fear of his life, he'd tell you, "that pharoh is nuts." At some point you have to have faith in authority and fall in line where you can contribute your end for the sake of the civilization you participate in. I would submit that its cooperation that gets great things done.
Is our public school system so deficient nowadays ? Well maybe it is. I've talked to teens (good students) and they are taught nothing of their own national history or civics nowadays. And it seems few are taught how to actually think.
'Collectivism' and 'co-operation' have nothing to do with each other at all. This nation was founded upon the principle that human beings have God given individual rights. Collectivism tosses away that notion for a 'greater good', the 'collective'. In actuality it is individual politicians who decide how that will be defined - - for their own personal benefit, of course. If they can use the law to funnel money to their contributors or further control the voters, they will do so. (FDR funneled money into districts he wanted to carry in upcoming elections. Even loyal Dem districts - already sure supporters - didn't get money if it didnt do his campaign any good, no matter how much it was needed. And union members who wouldnt contribute to the Dem party found themselves out of a job.) The underlying reality of the use of the concept of 'the collective' is that it is used to justify the application of force to get people to do what they wouldnt do voluntarily. - - - Thus we get monstrosities like the health care bill where O. lied & promised people would get to keep their own insurance - - They will try to force people on it with the threat of fines and ultimately imprisonment. A perfect example of the collective in action. People who believed in individual rights and the Constitution would not contemplate such an outrage. - - -
Ah, the goofball teabagger belief system. Tell me you're not going into schools trying to indoctrinate students with your
ideology; subversion. The monstrosity in health care is profiting from it. Hopefully the wealthy will be taxed to pay for any eventual bill and people who refuse to cooperate with the greater good for their own selfish reasons will be fined. Tell those kids they can go home and tell their parents they're not going to eat their vegatables. Evolve already its not 1776 anymore ...hollywood has really brainwashed these teabaggers.
Quote from omegapoint:
When opting for the term "collectivism" to describe what it is youre driving at theres a built in bias from the get. Try substituting the term "cooperation" for it. Cooperation is what NASA does. It got the space shuttle built, it put a man on the moon. Cooperation built the freeway system. Individualism is what built the pyramids, but if you asked one of the slaves that built them if he had any use for a pyramid, if he werent in fear of his life, he'd tell you, "that pharoh is nuts." At some point you have to have faith in authority and fall in line where you can contribute your end for the sake of the civilization you participate in. I would submit that its cooperation that gets great things done.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/170978.php
Quote from Index piker:
Good points but we have not had a valid Constitution since c.1861.
The Nation state we have today resembles nothing of the freedom fought for by the Founding fathers.
Absent the following we are headed directly to rule by authoritarianism .
1) State's rights, including the right to nullification and succession.
2) Curtailment of federal powers to those actually enumerated in the Constitution vs the Rorschach treatment it gets today.
3) Voter or tax reform: It's clearly insane to allow voters who bear no burden of govt responsibility (ie taxation) the right to vote.
When 50% of the population pays no federal income tax you have an unresolvable systemic problem.
IndexPiker - - I agree with many of your points, including the fact that we havent had a truly Constitutional based government. (And in actuality the Federalists pushed move for a Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation was motivated over their desire to expand the power of the central government. The Bill of Rights was written to help alieve the fears of those who were concerned over attacks on personal liberty. But, given the acts of government lawyers serving a judges in the courts through the years - those liberties have been assaulted repeatedly with their stamp of approval.) Similarly, we haven't truly had a capitalist system in a very long time either. Those who attack 'capitalism' as having failed in the current economic mess, don't know what it is apparently. A system with a monopoly central bank able to create money and without any oversight whatsoever, big favored corporations 'too big to fail' who can privatize profits while socializing losses onto the citizenry, and with politicians paid off in campaign contributions & other forms of loot - - - sure ain't free market capitalism !
We are at a crossroads. Conditions that these individuals have created down through the years have brought us to this point. We can put the nation back on the path of the vision of Jefferson and many of the founders of the nation where personal liberty is protected, property rights are protected - since if you don't have control over the product of your labors you don't really have control of your life, and minding our own damned business. The alternative is a dark hole where the few (often unelected) 'elites' use their influence and money to rob and control every aspect of the lives of the rest of the citizenry under the guise of "the greater good". Of course, they define what that is . . . and it always benefits them - - - and the rest of us have no say in it (those who haven't been persuaded by their propaganda from owned media outlets and govt 'schools'.) - - - Regards
Quote from Tigerjaw:
IndexPiker - - I agree with many of your points, including the fact that we havent had a truly Constitutional based government. (And in actuality the Federalists pushed move for a Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation was motivated over their desire to expand the power of the central government. The Bill of Rights was written to help alieve the fears of those who were concerned over attacks on personal liberty. But, given the acts of government lawyers serving a judges in the courts through the years - those liberties have been assaulted repeatedly with their stamp of approval.) Similarly, we haven't truly had a capitalist system in a very long time either. Those who attack 'capitalism' as having failed in the current economic mess, don't know what it is apparently. A system with a monopoly central bank able to create money and without any oversight whatsoever, big favored corporations 'too big to fail' who can privatize profits while socializing losses onto the citizenry, and with politicians paid off in campaign contributions & other forms of loot - - - sure ain't free market capitalism !
We are at a crossroads. Conditions that these individuals have created down through the years have brought us to this point. We can put the nation back on the path of the vision of Jefferson and many of the founders of the nation where personal liberty is protected, property rights are protected - since if you don't have control over the product of your labors you don't really have control of your life, and minding our own damned business. The alternative is a dark hole where the few (often unelected) 'elites' use their influence and money to rob and control every aspect of the lives of the rest of the citizenry under the guise of "the greater good". Of course, they define what that is . . . and it always benefits them - - - and the rest of us have no say in it (those who haven't been persuaded by their propaganda from owned media outlets and govt 'schools'.) - - - Regards
I agree , I didn't mention Capitalism because I see the resolution of those problems as a prerequisite for true Capitalism to flourish vs this mixture of crony capitalism and socialist/authoritarianism that we have now.