CNMTSU

[userque]

Fine. So why can't people support both movements? Why is supporting either of them wrong?

Assuming arguendo that Blue Lives Matter is a movement.

Who says people can't support both?
Who says supporting either of them is wrong?

What I see is BlackLM going out to protest the wrong doings of individuals cops, individual incidents.

And then I see BlueLM going out to protest those protesting the wrong doings; or protesting a legal proceeding involving the "bad" cop.

Again, there is a false narrative that is being portrayed: that BlackLM is protesting all cops; that kneeling is about veterans, or the flag, etc.

This false narrative is then used to justify protesting against, and vilify the character of people (Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Asians, Etc.) seeking justice and accountability within LE.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Assuming arguendo that Blue Lives Matter is a movement.

Who says people can't support both?
Who says supporting either of them is wrong?

I took it from your original post in this thread that you thought supporting BlueLM was wrong. If I am mistaken, then I apologize.

What I see is BlackLM going out to protest the wrong doings of individuals cops, individual incidents.

And then I see BlueLM going out to protest those protesting the wrong doings; or protesting a legal proceeding involving the "bad" cop.

Again, there is a false narrative that is being portrayed: that BlackLM is protesting all cops; that kneeling is about veterans, or the flag, etc.

This false narrative is then used to justify protesting against, and vilify the character of people (Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Asians, Etc.) seeking justice and accountability within LE.

I don't see it this way at all. What I see is BlackLM going out to protest the wrong doings of cops, and then the movement is hijacked by a violent group of people (no way for me to know whether or not they are aligned) that causes violence and destruction of property to the many people they are claiming "matter". Then I see the cops respond as they are able, poorly in some cases, but are completely disrespected and branded as all evil with shouting, beating, screaming, killing and ambushing - with black people now excusing themselves from the BlackLM movement entirely and letting young white kids do all the protesting and violence. So out of this naturally comes a counter movement where people say things like "Your cause is a good one, but so is ours."

If all people did was protest peacefully, I would support them 100%. I might even donate.

This, of course, is being masterly orchestrated by the media and political parties that would prefer we remain at each other's throats rather than solve problems or pay attention to them and all that they are looting from us in the background.

 

[userque]

I took it from your original post in this thread that you thought supporting BlueLM was wrong. If I am mistaken, then I apologize.

No problem. I didn't look back to check, but my bad if I mislead you.

I don't see it this way at all. What I see is BlackLM going out to protest the wrong doings of cops, and then the movement is hijacked by a violent group of people (no way for me to know whether or not they are aligned) that causes violence and destruction of property to the many people they are claiming "matter".

I suspect the hijackers are not BlackLM members. First, being Black at a protest doesn't automatically make you a member of the organization. The organization is real, and is run by real people. I'm sure that they don't appreciate their name being defamed.

Second, BlackLM is not a destructive / violent organization.

Such organizations tend to advertise as such ... White supremacist groups, Militias, for example. They openly stock weapons and ammo. They where combat gear. They conduct field training.

The FBI reportedly discovered white supremacist groups were encouraging followers to engage in violence two days after George Floyd's death
https://theweek.com/speedreads/9176...e-violence-two-days-after-george-floyds-death

You and others are quick to point at "BlackLM !!" even when there is no evidence that the movement is responsible for any violence / destruction; but rarely (usually only after a debate) do you condemn, White supremacist groups / militias. And I'm going to guess that you've never started a thread condemning a White Supremacist / militia group.

If you're interested:

Groups by type
Ku Klux Klan
Neo-Nazi
White nationalist
Racist skinheads
Extreme antigovernment movement
Black separatist/nationalist
Neo-Confederate
Christian Identity
Anti-LGBT
Anti-immigrant
Holocaust denial
Male supremacy
Neo-Völkisch
Hate music
Radical traditional Catholicism
Anti-Muslim
Other

Militias with a statewide presence[A]
Name State Ref.
Arizona Border Recon Arizona [8][9][10]
Arizona Liberty Guard Arizona [11]
Arizona State Militia Arizona [12]
Southern Arizona Militia Arizona [11]
Arkansas Defense Force Arkansas [11]
First State Pathfinders Delaware [11]
Indiana Citizens Volunteer Militia Indiana [11]
Maine Militia Maine [11]
Michigan Home Guard Michigan [11]
Michigan Militia Michigan [11]
Northwest Lower Michigan Civil Defense Michigan [11]
Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia Michigan [11]
Missouri Brotherhood Militia Missouri [11]
Missouri Citizens Militia Missouri [11][13]
Missouri Militia Missouri [14]
New Jersey Light Foot Militia New Jersey [11]
Citizens for Constitutional Freedom New Mexico
North Country Deplorables New York [15]
New York Light Foot Militia New York [11][16]
New York Militia TM New York [11]
New York Mutual Assistance Group New York [11]
Cowboys Motorcycle Club Ohio [11]
The Last Militia Ohio [11]
Ohio Irregulars Ohio [11]
Ohio Valley Minutemen Citizen's Volunteer Militia Ohio [11]
West Ohio Minutemen Ohio [11]
Appalachian Associators Pennsylvania [11]
Pennsylvania Armare Woodsmen Pennsylvania [11]
Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia Pennsylvania [11]
Pennsylvania State Militia Pennsylvania [11]
Rhode Island Patriots Rhode Island [11]
Texas State Militia Texas [17][18]
Green Mountain Militia Vermont [11]
Washington Light Foot Militia Washington [19]
West Virginia Light Foot Militia West Virginia [11]


Local groups
SPLC identified local militia groups (2018)[11][C]
State Name Location
Alabama Alabama Constitutional Militia Clanton
South Alabama Militia Dothan
Alaska Alaska Citizens Militia Nikiski
Arizona Arizona Freedom Militia Mohave
Northern Arizona Militia Golden Valley
Arkansas Arkansas State Militia Corps Mansfield
California California State Militia Bay Area
Northern
Sacramento County
Southern
Florida Florida Militia Central
Northeast
Northwest
Southern
Idaho Idaho Light Foot Militia Kootenai County
Meridian
Illinois Illinois Sons of Liberty Chicago
Indiana Indiana Citizens Volunteer Militia[D] Lake County
Kentucky KY County Rangers Bath County
Maine Maine Volunteer Responders Gardiner
Michigan Capitol City Militia Clinton County
Genesee County Volunteer Militia Genesee County
Michigan Liberty Militia Barry County
Michigan Peoples' Reactionary Force Genesee County
Michigan Wolf Pack Gratiot County
Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia[D] Lapeer County
Macomb County
Wayne County
Mississippi Citizens Militia of Mississippi Batesville
Carroll County
Missouri Missouri Citizens Militia[D] Washington County
Missouri Militia[D] Joplin
Kansas City
Springfield
St. Joseph
New Hampshire Patriot Mutual Assistance Group Rindge
New York Liberty State Militia Chenango County
New York Militia TM[D] Albany County
Mohawk Valley Region
New York Mutual Assistance Group Orange County
Suffolk County
North Carolina Stokes County Militia King
Ohio The Frontiersmen Ravenna
The Last Militia[D] Allen County
Butler County
Clark County
Hamilton County
Montgomery County
Summit County
Trumbull County
North East Ohio Outdoorsman East Rochester
Ohio Defense Force Home Guard Cincinnati
Cleveland
New Lexington
Zanesville
Reapers Constitutional Militia of Ohio Cortland
Oregon Central Oregon Constitutional Guard Redmond
Pennsylvania Carlisle Light Infantry Cumberland County
Eastern Pennsylvania Regional Militia Wyomissing
Pennsylvania Homeland Shield Clarksburg
Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia[D] Berks County
Bradford County
Juniata County
Luzerne County
Schuylkill County
Tioga County
Westmoreland County
South Carolina South Carolina Light Foot Militia Horry County
Tennessee 1st Tennessee Rifles UMIT Lafayette
East Tennessee Mountain Militia Knoxville
Tennessee Defence Legion Chester
Texas

Alamo Militia San Antonio
Golden Triangle Militia Groves
Orange
Texas Light Foot Militia Tyler
Texas State Militia Austin
Big Spring
Houston
Washington Washington Light Foot Militia[D] Spokane County
West Virginia Ohio Valley Minutemen Citizen's Volunteer Militia[E] Charleston

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...he_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_militia_organizations_in_the_United_States

Then I see the cops respond as they are able, poorly in some cases, but are completely disrespected and branded as all evil with shouting, ...

They knew the job was dangerous when they took it. Lots of folks have jobs where they get disrespected, branded as evil, shouted at on the job; and they don't even get to carry a weapon.

...beating, screaming, killing and ambushing

You went into great detail describing the violence against cops during a riot; which is to be expected during a ... riot; which is what they train for. But you say little about the blatant and willful, violence the servants paid to serve and protect exact on defenseless non-rioters and reporters.

You say nothing about the rubber bullets blinding bystanders; nothing about the paint balls injuring eyes; nothing about the children being gassed; nothing about pregnant women being gassed while confined in a car; nothing about gas canisters being shot at individuals; nothing about shooting paint balls at civilians observing from within their residence; Etc. Etc.

Regardless, you've made no knew argument here. I agree that there were bad actors. My assertion was that they weren't BlackLM members.

- with black people now excusing themselves from the BlackLM movement entirely and letting young white kids do all the protesting and violence.

Evidence?

Assuming that's a fact, what's your point?

So out of this naturally comes a counter movement where people say things like "Your cause is a good one, but so is ours."

No. They don't yell, "Your cause is a good one!!"

If all people did was protest peacefully, I would support them 100%. I might even donate.

If all cops did was obey laws, rules, and regulations, and treat people equally and fairly, there would be no protests.

This, of course, is being masterly orchestrated by the media and political parties that would prefer we remain at each other's throats rather than solve problems or pay attention to them and all that they are looting from us in the background.

We can't blame the media.

Everyone has a brain. Even the dumbest brain can do some research and think for itself.

Even the dumbest brain can, at least, say to itself, "Hey dumb ass, maybe check out some other news outlets and websites since everyone says my news outlets and websites are extremely biased."

The same willful ignorance that allowed 400 years of slavery, is the same willful ignorance that has allowed police abuses since the slaves were "freed."

 

[Tsing Tao]

I suspect the hijackers are not BlackLM members. First, being Black at a protest doesn't automatically make you a member of the organization. The organization is real, and is run by real people. I'm sure that they don't appreciate their name being defamed.

Second, BlackLM is not a destructive / violent organization.

Just curious, but do you have any widely - hell even moderately - circulated release from the official BLM that denounces the violence and rioting - all being done in the BLM name (as an example, protesters setting fire to a business while chanting "BLACK LIVES MATTER". That's probably where a lot of the confusion comes in. If the official BLM movement stated that they do not support the actions of these individuals and stood up loudly to denounce such actions, it would go a long way.

They knew the job was dangerous when they took it. Lots of folks have jobs where they get disrespected, branded as evil, shouted at on the job; and they don't even get to carry a weapon.

What other jobs are disrespected, branded as evil and shouted at or physically attacked by mobs?

You went into great detail describing the violence against cops during a riot; which is to be expected during a ... riot; which is what they train for. But you say little about the blatant and willful, violence the servants paid to serve and protect exact on defenseless non-rioters and reporters.

This may surprise you, but most police officers do not train for riots. Not even occasionally. This is why so many (still small statistically, but enough to be noticed) perform so poorly.

You say nothing about the rubber bullets blinding bystanders; nothing about the paint balls injuring eyes; nothing about the children being gassed; nothing about pregnant women being gassed while confined in a car; nothing about gas canisters being shot at individuals; nothing about shooting paint balls at civilians observing from within their residence; Etc. Etc.

[/quote]

Why do I need to say anything about them? I'm not saying Black Lives Matters doesn't have a right to protest or have a movement. This whole thing began because I thought you were saying Blue Lives Matters has no right or isn't a movement. If you believe they have a right to have a moment, and it is a real movement, then as far as I'm concerned - we are in agreement here.

Is that your position? Is Blue Lives Matter a movement? Do they have a right to their movement?

 

[userque]

Just curious, but do you have any widely - hell even moderately - circulated release from the official BLM that denounces the violence and rioting - all being done in the BLM name (as an example, protesters setting fire to a business while chanting "BLACK LIVES MATTER". That's probably where a lot of the confusion comes in. If the official BLM movement stated that they do not support the actions of these individuals and stood up loudly to denounce such actions, it would go a long way.

I have no such releases.

What other jobs are disrespected, branded as evil and shouted at or physically attacked by mobs?

Public bus drivers; postal clerks; Retail clerks; letter carriers; teachers; meter maids; uber drivers; on and on. I'm sure you could name a few more.

By the way, here's a Fox News 2018 list of the most dangerous jobs:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/most-dangerous-jobs-in-us

10. Landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping first-line supervisors
2018 fatal injury rate: 20.2 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $48,220

9. Construction trades and extraction workers’ first-line supervisors
2018 fatal injury rate: 21.0 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $65,230

8. Structural iron and steelworkers
2018 fatal injury rate: 23.6 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $53,970

7. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
2018 fatal injury rate: 24.7 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $67,950

6. Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
2018 fatal injury rate: 26.0 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $38,800

GET FOX BUSINESS ON THE GO BY CLICKING HERE

5. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
2018 fatal injury rate: 44.3 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $37,260

4. Roofers
2018 fatal injury rate: 51.5 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $39,970

3. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
2018 fatal injury rate: 58.9 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: $115,670

2. Fishers and related fishing workers
2018 fatal injury rate: 77.4 per 100,000 workers

Median annual wage: N/A

1. Logging workers

You went into great detail describing the violence against cops during a riot; which is to be expected during a ... riot; which is what they train for. But you say little about the blatant and willful, violence the servants paid to serve and protect exact on defenseless non-rioters and reporters.

You say nothing about the rubber bullets blinding bystanders; nothing about the paint balls injuring eyes; nothing about the children being gassed; nothing about pregnant women being gassed while confined in a car; nothing about gas canisters being shot at individuals; nothing about shooting paint balls at civilians observing from within their residence; Etc. Etc.

Why do I need to say anything about them?

You don't need to.

Is that your position? Is Blue Lives Matter a movement? Do they have a right to their movement?

I finally checked: I never argued it wasn't a movement, not even closely. According to Wikipedia, it's a movement.

Is it your position that BlackLM is a terrorist or destructive or violent organization?

 

[SunTrader]

White outrage? Is this why most riots and protests nowadays are mostly or all white? Thanks for explaining it. I was trying to figure out why that was the case.

White Outrage once more (although not so sure about the white part with you) is pulling out of your ass that most riots and protests nowadays are mostly or all white.

But keep trying to figure out.

 

[Tsing Tao]

Public bus drivers; postal clerks; Retail clerks; letter carriers; teachers; meter maids; uber drivers; on and on. I'm sure you could name a few more.

By the way, here's a Fox News 2018 list of the most dangerous jobs:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/most-dangerous-jobs-in-us

Uh, this is danger by injury on the job. Not danger as in violence.

We spoke (both you said and I asked) about jobs that were "disrespected, branded as evil and shouted at or physically attacked by mobs". Are Uber Drivers branded as evil? Maybe by Taxi drivers. Meter Mads are attacked by mobs or physically beaten? I'll admit to have thinking of doing that when I got a parking ticket one time.

I finally checked: I never argued it wasn't a movement, not even closely. According to Wikipedia, it's a movement.

I know, I provided you the Wikipedia link when you said

I'm aware of the BLM movement (https://blacklivesmatter.com/). Point me to the website for the other movement you're referring to.

which made me think you were saying Blue Lives Matter was not something you were aware of and

Not necessarily to be "valid," but to be an actual movement, there needs to be evidence of such a movement.

If I say that there is an Orange Lives Matter movement, does that make it so? People should debate that "movement" on only the strength that I said it exists?

Name any established movement without a supporting organization or website.

which indicated you did not think Blue Lives Matter was a valid movement (the comment re: Orange Lives Matter...). But again, if you've changed your stance or never meant that, and you consider Blue Lives Matter a valid movement, then we're in agreement and we don't have to continue on this, unless you have further questions.

Is it your position that BlackLM is a terrorist or destructive or violent organization?

Terrorist, no. ANTIFA is an organization I believe to be terrorist in nature.

Is Black Lives Matter destructive or violent? I am unsure. The acts we've seen in the past month surely make me think it is. The fact that Black Lives Matter has not denounced these actions indicates they support them. Again, I am more than happy to change my mind if you've got evidence showing how they say "this is not us! This is not what we are about!" in reference to any of the violent acts, statue toppling, police attacking, arson, taking over a 6 block area of a city, etc., situations.

 

[Tsing Tao]

White Outrage once more (although not so sure about the white part with you) is pulling out of your ass that most riots and protests nowadays are mostly or all white.

But keep trying to figure out.

I've figured it out a long time ago. Your the one needing a pop-up book on the subject. Do they still have those? Would you like some examples of riots and protests scenes essentially made up of white people only (like, 95-100%)?

 

[userque]

Uh, this is danger by injury on the job. Not danger as in violence.

An injury is an injury.

Police are included in those types of lists/stats, they just aren't the most dangerous jobs...not in the top ten.

We spoke (both you said and I asked) about jobs that were "disrespected, branded as evil and shouted at or physically attacked by mobs". Are Uber Drivers branded as evil? Maybe by Taxi drivers. Meter Mads are attacked by mobs or physically beaten? I'll admit to have thinking of doing that when I got a parking ticket one time.

Whatever the reality is, there are jobs more dangerous than police. Fact.

If you want to debate whether police are treated more meanly than others; you'll have to point us to where such statistics are kept. Do cops check a box on a form when someone was being mean to them?

Bottom line, a cop volunteered to be a cop. If a cop finds that they are being treated too meanly, they should either quit and find a job where people treat them nicer; or investigate why everyone is being so mean to them.

which made me think you were saying Blue Lives Matter was not something you were aware of and
...
which indicated you did not think Blue Lives Matter was a valid movement (the comment re: Orange Lives Matter...). But again, if you've changed your stance or never meant that, and you consider Blue Lives Matter a valid movement, then we're in agreement and we don't have to continue on this, unless you have further questions.

Often times, you seem to (incorrectly) assume that me asking a question about something, implies that I have the opposite position.

I was aware of BlueLM, I was not aware that it was considered a valid movement. Me being unaware, doesn't suggest that I take the position that it is not a movement; hence, the question.

If it were my argument to make, I would have researched it (as I did with BlackLM, and provided the link); but it was your argument, so I asked you to support your own argument. And you did show that they are a movement.

Terrorist, no. ANTIFA is an organization I believe to be terrorist in nature.

Is Black Lives Matter destructive or violent? I am unsure. The acts we've seen in the past month surely make me think it is. The fact that Black Lives Matter has not denounced these actions indicates they support them. Again, I am more than happy to change my mind if you've got evidence showing how they say "this is not us! This is not what we are about!" in reference to any of the violent acts, statue toppling, police attacking, arson, taking over a 6 block area of a city, etc., situations.

So, I have to "prove" BlackLM's innocence before you'll grant them the presumption of innocence. Sounds familiar (see links below).

Should all Whites denounce Skin heads publicly whenever one of them yells "White Power!!" nearby?

The phrase "Black lives matter" is not exclusive to members--anyone can say it. Lately, the whole world has been saying it.

Just as you and/or others have said, "White lives matter, All lives matter, Blue lives matter" without being members in those organizations, I assume.

Surely you don't believe that every fat, roly poly White guy that yells, "Blue lives matter" is a cop; you'd probably assume that they are a supporter. Yet, that same logic, you don't apply to BlackLM.

Walter Scott and the presumption of guilt for black Americans
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...the-presumption-of-guilt-for-black-americans/

2018 Presumption of Guilt
https://racism.org/articles/law-and...ption-of-guilt-2018/2277-presumption-of-guilt