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[jonbig04]

No evidence is pointing to supernatural causes? Oh I beg to differ. Tell me what causes creatures to evolve? What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none. For the 20th time re-read my first long post. The how doesnt tell you why, or what did it. Using my example of the elephant in the room, your fossils are like saying "the elephant is here because it came through the door" and thats it, its explained. The world existing when nobody knows how IS supernatural, the fact the humans are powered by _____? IS supernatural. Can you explain it? The fact that you know a heart beats doesnt mean you know why or how it does.

You have quoted people saying what I have been saying, that so far science can't explain the really interesting questions (yet)....yet you still cling to them and use them as your basis for "truth". You seem to be using your own quotes to contradict yourself.


The fact is this: you don't know. Nobody does. Yet you pass your judgement anyways...THAT is ignorance.


You are willfully ignorant to the complexity of the issue. I'll ask you this again. Do you have the answers? Do you know? Then who are you to critique what other may think or believe? Take the advice of Einstien, Socrates, and many others and appreciate the vastness of the issue and our lack of knowledge of it. The you will realize that you, like everybody else, know nothing. And maybe then you won't be so eager to deal out judgments.

I would be telling you the same things if you were attacking evolutionists. Unlike you, I carry no biases into the discussion.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from jonbig04:

No evidence is pointing to supernatural causes? Oh I beg to differ. Tell me what causes creatures to evolve? What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none. For the 20th time re-read my first long post. The how doesnt tell you why, or what did it. Using my example of the elephant in the room, your fossils are like saying "the elephant is here because it came through the door" and thats it, its explained. The world existing when nobody knows how IS supernatural, the fact the humans are powered by _____? IS supernatural. Can you explain it? The fact that you know a heart beats doesnt mean you know why or how it does.

You have quoted people saying what I have been saying, that so far science can't explain the really interesting questions (yet)....yet you still cling to them and use them as your basis for "truth". You seem to be using your own quotes to contradict yourself.


The fact is this: you don't know. Nobody does. Yet you pass your judgement anyways...THAT is ignorance.


You are willfully ignorant to the complexity of the issue. I'll ask you this again. Do you have the answers? Do you know? Then who are you to critique what other may think or believe? Take the advice of Einstien, Socrates, and many others and appreciate the vastness of the issue and our lack of knowledge of it. The you will realize that you, like everybody else, know nothing. And maybe then you won't be so eager to deal out judgments.

I would be telling you the same things if you were attacking evolutionists. Unlike you, I carry no biases into the discussion.

there you go again with the appeal to ignorance fallacy. you dont understand how science works and refuse to believe the explainations of those who do know so you can insert your religious beliefs any gaps.

Exposition:
An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

 

[Jayford]

Hi guys (vhehn and jonbig04),

I have been following this discussion with some interest as its one I've had many times, and I was never able to convince the other party of my view, and vice versa.

vhehn, as you state, you can't prove a negative, and there is the whole "how did it all start then" argument. You will never convince believers otherwise, no matter how much evidence you provide. I have found it an amazing waste of time. Let them believe what they want as long as they keep it out of schools (which in a few states they do not).

jonbig04, evolution is easily explained by mutation and other processes. It is a fact, deal with it. Scientists can even induce it in real time with bacteria since their life spans are so short. They simply throw a batch of bacteria in a dish, and then radically tweak the environment. Within weeks the damn things change. Thousands of generations in a short period of time. This does not mean there is no God however. There is no reason why God would outlaw change through evolution.

Anyway, that is where my discussions on the topic always ended. Brick wall right there.

Jay

 

[stu]

Quote from jonbig04:

No evidence is pointing to supernatural causes? Oh I beg to differ.

Then you would be wrong to do so.

Quote from jonbig04:

Tell me what causes creatures to evolve?

The DNA of an organism mutates. vhehn has already provided information how science and Francis S. Collins director of the Human Genome Project have now provided incontrovertible proof of a long understood evolutionary fact .

Quote from jonbig04:

What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none.

You are wrong to say there is no evidence. The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.
The evidence tells how changes due to mutation are either beneficial, harmful or make no difference to the organisms survival.
It explains how over very long time periods, mutation results in new species forming.

In this most important and fundamental detail of evolution, the how of science does tell you why and what.

Now then, please reciprocate.
There is no equivalent evidence pointing to supernatural causes so please tell what causes creatures to evolve supernaturally "What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none."

Unlike science supernatural never has and never does equivalently answer how why or when. All supernatural can do is beg further questions and explain nothing.

By the way, you may wish to note that evolution has nothing to do with first cause. You should not mix that up with evolution and its causation

 

[MarketMasher]

Quote from vhehn:

there you go again with the appeal to ignorance fallacy. you dont understand how science works and refuse to believe the explainations of those who do know so you can insert your religious beliefs any gaps.

Exposition:
An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

God is not religion. Religion is an interpretation using imperfect language as it's expression.

Science is not God. The science of a 5-year-old cannot comprehend atomic physics. Does that mean it has no basis in reality?

Cosmically speaking, we are less than 5-year-olds. That science has no answer to many of our questions means nothing. With imagination we leap ahead, and often science follows. Without imagination, no science.

So the search for God is rooted in the same impulse as all scientific discovery. That is what Einstein meant when he sought "the mind of God". Great scientist, great question.

"There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[jonbig04]

Quote from Jayford:

Hi guys (vhehn and jonbig04),

I have been following this discussion with some interest as its one I've had many times, and I was never able to convince the other party of my view, and vice versa.

vhehn, as you state, you can't prove a negative, and there is the whole "how did it all start then" argument. You will never convince believers otherwise, no matter how much evidence you provide. I have found it an amazing waste of time. Let them believe what they want as long as they keep it out of schools (which in a few states they do not).

jonbig04, evolution is easily explained by mutation and other processes. It is a fact, deal with it. Scientists can even induce it in real time with bacteria since their life spans are so short. They simply throw a batch of bacteria in a dish, and then radically tweak the environment. Within weeks the damn things change. Thousands of generations in a short period of time. This does not mean there is no God however. There is no reason why God would outlaw change through evolution.

Anyway, that is where my discussions on the topic always ended. Brick wall right there.

Jay

EXACTLY, great post. The brick wall is what I'm trying to impress on these self proclaimed geniuses.

 

[jonbig04]

Quote from stu:

Then you would be wrong to do so.

The DNA of an organism mutates. vhehn has already provided information how science and Francis S. Collins director of the Human Genome Project have now provided incontrovertible proof of a long understood evolutionary fact .

You are wrong to say there is no evidence. The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.
The evidence tells how changes due to mutation are either beneficial, harmful or make no difference to the organisms survival.
It explains how over very long time periods, mutation results in new species forming.

In this most important and fundamental detail of evolution, the how of science does tell you why and what.

Now then, please reciprocate.
There is no equivalent evidence pointing to supernatural causes so please tell what causes creatures to evolve supernaturally "What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none."

Unlike science supernatural never has and never does equivalently answer how why or when. All supernatural can do is beg further questions and explain nothing.

By the way, you may wish to note that evolution has nothing to do with first cause. You should not mix that up with evolution and its causation

Congrats on taking my words completely out of context.

The DNA causes us to evolve? OK point taken. Now if you will, what causes DNA?

I never said there was no evidence for evolution. You took that completely out of context because thats all you could do. I said there was no evidence as to the CAUSE. What CAUSES a heart to beat? What CAUSED us to exist?

The reason I'm on the winning side of this argument doesn't have anything to do with evidence or lack of evidence. The fact that you would use something as trivial as a fossil to explain all the questions of the universe speaks to your arrogance, and the arrogance of anyone who claims they KNOW.

Einstein didnt know, Socrates didn't know , I don't know and yes even you don't know. You are taking the EXACT same role as a creationist. Im arguing for neither, only that we can mutual respect for both as both are feeble attempts to solve an interminable question.


I've already answered all the other questions in my previous posts, just because you post them again doesn't make them valid points when I;ve already addressed them.

 

[stu]

Quote from jonbig04:

Congrats on taking my words completely out of context.

The DNA causes us to evolve? OK point taken. Now if you will, what causes DNA?

I never said there was no evidence for evolution. You took that completely out of context because thats all you could do. I said there was no evidence as to the CAUSE. What CAUSES a heart to beat? What CAUSED us to exist?

The reason I'm on the winning side of this argument doesn't have anything to do with evidence or lack of evidence. The fact that you would use something as trivial as a fossil to explain all the questions of the universe speaks to your arrogance, and the arrogance of anyone who claims they KNOW.

Einstein didnt know, Socrates didn't know , I don't know and yes even you don't know. You are taking the EXACT same role as a creationist. Im arguing for neither, only that we can mutual respect for both as both are feeble attempts to solve an interminable question.


I've already answered all the other questions in my previous posts, just because you post them again doesn't make them valid points when I;ve already addressed them.

Quote from jonbig04:

Tell me what causes creatures to evolve? What does the evidence tell you? Nothing because you have none.

Perhaps it is the over aggressive tone you've adopted which belies your real point.
I think it is confusing the issue both for yourself and others.

You are simply talking of first cause. That's a completely different matter altogether to what your earlier argument says - as shown above..

Quote from jonbig04:

Tell me what causes creatures to evolve?

You asked that question and indeed as stated, it is scientifically proven what causes creatures to evolve. So that question is both explained and answered in science, but there is no equivalent explanation or answer for it in the supernatural .

If your question is really "what caused everything?" , then there are some scientific answers which are not proven but which can refer to substantial and supportable evidence similar to those associated to evolution, but not proof.
But there is no equal explanation or answer for 'first cause' whatsoever in the supernatural . Supernatural only ever produces more begged questions, never any supportable or substantial evidence or proof of anything the way science does.
In fairness I did draw your attention to this at the end of my previous post to you.

 

[stu]

Quote from MarketMasher:

God is not religion. Religion is an interpretation using imperfect language as it's expression.

Science is not God. The science of a 5-year-old cannot comprehend atomic physics. Does that mean it has no basis in reality?

Cosmically speaking, we are less than 5-year-olds. That science has no answer to many of our questions means nothing. With imagination we leap ahead, and often science follows. Without imagination, no science.

So the search for God is rooted in the same impulse as all scientific discovery. That is what Einstein meant when he sought "the mind of God". Great scientist, great question.

"There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

You seem quite clear on what God is not. Do you have any ideas on what It is?
Can God have any more substantiation than just being imagined ? Because if not it is nothing to do with scientific discovery. Scientific discovery is the only method which brings imagination into provable reality.

 

[jonbig04]

Quote from stu:

Perhaps it is the over aggressive tone you've adopted which belies your real point.
I think it is confusing the issue both for yourself and others.

You are simply talking of first cause. That's a completely different matter altogether to what your earlier argument says - as shown above..




You asked that question and indeed as stated, it is scientifically proven what causes creatures to evolve. So that question is both explained and answered in science, but there is no equivalent explanation or answer for it in the supernatural .

If your question is really "what caused everything?" , then there are some scientific answers which are not proven but which can refer to substantial and supportable evidence similar to those associated to evolution, but not proof.
But again, there is no explanation or answer for 'first cause' in the supernatural . Supernatural only ever produces more begged questions, never any proof.
In fairness I did draw your attention to this at the end of my previous post to you.

I'm not talking about "first cause" I'm talking about the cause of anything at all. You act like I am cherry picking things that science can't explain, I'm not. Science simply has no answer for all the great questions. Maybe it will one day, but as of today things are just as unclear as they have been. Science can't prove or deny a god. This is what leaves us at the brick wall. Supernatural is used for a reason, because the natural can't explain it. Using that very word implies that there is much still unknown. I ask you again, is it strange to you that people turn to supernatural when natural can't explain it? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. My point is that when so little is known about the cause of everything, our creation etc is it correct to rule out creation?

It was pointed out above that I was using lack of evidence to deny something, are you not doing the same thing? You have no evidence against a supernatural being (and you never will because of the nature of supernatural) just as we have no evidence for it. Does that means its correct? No, but it doesnt mean its false either. It just takes us back to the same place we were before. If you choose to believe in science I can't and won't blame you (just remember it is a belief).

As for your scientific arguments for creation they still become just as faith based as creationists. From what I can see the biggest problem with a god is where did he come from? Religions answer is that he was just there. Of course that makes no sense scientifically. However every scientific theory is based on the same exact notion that seems ridiculous to you: That something came from nothing. Once again I ask you whats the difference if we were created by some small amounts of matter or a white haired God. Perhaps the matter is God. Either way both science and religion suffer from the same flaws, and the same drawbacks when it comes to explaining the really interesting questions. If you choose to believe one over the other than great, just know that your belief is worth the price you paid for it. I choose to simply stand in awe at the question, knowing that I don't know. Rather than choose one side over the other when they are both (when it comes to the questions we are all searching for) equally faith based and inadequate.