CLoNiNG

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


777, i have no problem at all with you having an opinion that differs from mine. we are all free to believe whatever we want.

for the record, i am not for or against a belief in God. i really just don't know..AND I CAN ADMIT AND ACCEPT THAT. it also depends on what God is defined as. i am open to just about any possibility, however, i know better than to expect our current knowledge to have all the answers. nevermind current, your beliefs are basically stone age. you believe the same beliefs as the guys who invented the wheel. of all the beliefs to follow, i think i'll pass on that one. i know i'm exaggerating here, it may not be the stone age, but it might as well be..

Gordon,

You are free to call my beliefs whatever you want.

Part of my belief system includes giving people the right to their own opinion.

Since God has granted his children freedom of choice, why should I stand in their way?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from Josh_B:

Good posts!

The are some interesting questions arising with cloning and genetic engineering.

Let's say you are a person of means (power money connections etc) and you have lived a great life so far. But you need a liver transplant or any other organ to continue you life in you perceived happiness.

Would you create a clone to harvest the internal organs for your benefit? It may be the only way for you to live. ( After all he/she/it IS the perfect donor for you). Do you consider the clone an "it" just a collection of spare parts for you so your life is enhanced? Or do you consider the clone a sentient being self aware living human entity? Do you have the right to destroy the clone?

And what if that was your love one, your child, your wife or husband that needed the organs.


With genetic engineering, where can one draw the line? or Is there a line to be drawn? Do you enhance your child's performance? to what extend? longevity, brain power, disease resistance? increased hearing? sight? the list can go on...

Do you effectively create a new species? Is it a new super race? And what of the rest of humans? Are they to become slaves? destroyed? after all they have no "means" to achieve a "better" set of children etc.

Do you create a slave clone race to support your life's happiness..

Who decides who lives and who dies? What is life? sure there is a textbook definition, maybe a spiritual, or religious one. But who constructed those definitions, and are they "right" or "wrong"?? Morality? ethics? they are all constructs of ours. Frames of reference...

Where does science stops and faith starts?, are they complementing each other, or are they at war..

Is life everywhere? and what we see around us is a manifestation of what life is, filtered through our perceptions?

Are you now a God or G-D or g-d? or what ever your belief system tells you? And what is god? Definitions can vary as the number of beliefs..

It seems there are just more questions than answers..


As an ancient philosopher said before he died: The only absolute truth, is that there is no absolute truth...


Great topic GG


Josh

you've asked some major, great questions. i can't get into them all right now..but..

imo, our brains are who we are. i'm not a believer in souls at all. if you don't have a brain or it is not working, imo you're just a bunch of body parts. so i would say it's ok to harvest individual body parts..or maybe even grow a full body with no brain. lol i dunno if that'll be possible..

as far as the right to do this stuff. it all comes down to ethics. i think ethics are started from religious beliefs. however, as more and more people become not religious (which WILL happen), then it really comes down to what society deems to be acceptable. BUT, just remember that science will not be held back. for example, say the usa passes laws against cloning and genetic engineering. then say some other country does not have those restrictions and creates a super smart race. the usa will just lose. it will be survival of the fittest as it has always been.

 

[stu]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:
(to Gordon)
You can make definitive statements which are your opinion---however they can not be proven logically where God is concerned, your statements are a matter of your own faith in the idea that God does not exist.

but you can and do make definitive statements ? or should we just leave it at.... you believe in god (perfectly acceptable) and leave YOUR definitive statements that God does exist out of it too?

My comments only appear condescending from those who are looking up at true believers.
People who practice faith see everyone on the same level.

you couldn't get more condescending if you tried. You should consider that more rational people can't look up to something that doesn't get off the launch pad in the first place

People who practice faith imply they have a 'truth' or 'understanding' which only they can understand. Nothing level there but downright slanted and full of presumed but wholly undeserved virtue

And Again.........

Gordon,

You are free to call my beliefs whatever you want.
Part of my belief system includes giving people the right to their own opinion.
Since God has granted his children freedom of choice, why should I stand in their way?

"the right to their own opinion" oh yeah?? especially on 'judgment day' ? I don't think so. This stuff just doesn’t get past go. Let me remind you that which you so easily selectively and conveniently forget. "All will be rewarded accordingly". your own implied threat I think. No free will if you want to be seen to have been "good". Nonsense, grown ups being childish and immature more like.

"God has granted his children freedom of choice"

you just can't help yourself now. Down comes the blind part of the faith. Say someone else is making definitive statements when it is YOU who makes more than any. It appears from your reasoning that you couldn't recognise a God if it hit you in the cassocks - should reasoning be your benchmark.

It is open minded free thinking people who recognise the good possible in humanity itself and who also tolerate religious faiths. Churches through Religion subjugate tolerance of others. Then say at the same time they don't. Just like you have done Option .

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from stu:


but you can and do make definitive statements ? or should we just leave it at.... you believe in god (perfectly acceptable) and leave YOUR definitive statements that God does exist out of it too?

you couldn't get more condescending if you tried. You should consider that more rational people can't look up to something that doesn't get off the launch pad in the first place

People who practice faith imply they have a 'truth' or 'understanding' which only they can understand. Nothing level there but downright slanted and full of presumed but wholly undeserved virtue

And Again.........


"the right to their own opinion" oh yeah?? especially on 'judgment day' ? I don't think so. This stuff just doesn’t get past go. Let me remind you that which you so easily selectively and conveniently forget. "All will be rewarded accordingly". your own implied threat I think. No free will if you want to be seen to have been "good". Nonsense, grown ups being childish and immature more like.

you just can't help yourself now. Down comes the blind part of the faith. Say someone else is making definitive statements when it is YOU who makes more than any. It appears from your reasoning that you couldn't recognise a God if it hit you in the cassocks - should reasoning be your benchmark.

It is open minded free thinking people who recognise the good possible in humanity itself and who also tolerate religious faiths. Churches through Religion subjugate tolerance of others. Then say at the same time they don't. Just like you have done Option .

You sure have a bunch of issues with religion, sorry.

I'll pray for you.

 

[stu]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:
You sure have a bunch of issues with religion, sorry.

I'll pray for you.

Now don't do that pray thing Option you will waste your time and you will insult my intelligence. and thanks but no thanks for yet another condescension in your "sorry".

These aren't "issues" they are points which question things we are led to blindly believe or understand.
I now understand you can't understand that simple fact ,nor are you able to confront the hard issues you refer to.
However, I do wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year and that it may bring you a little more understanding

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:

You sure have a bunch of issues with religion, sorry.

I'll pray for you.

i know that was directed at stu, but..

praying = talking to one's self (if it makes you feel better, fine.)

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from stu:



Now don't do that pray thing Option you will waste your time and you will insult my intelligence. and thanks but no thanks for yet another condescension in your "sorry".

These aren't "issues" they are points which question things we are led to blindly believe or understand.
I now understand you can't understand that simple fact ,nor are you able to confront the hard issues you refer to.
However, I do wish you a Happy and Prosperous New Year and that it may bring you a little more understanding

I am always in favor of greater understanding between those of differing opinions.

 

[stu]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



I am always in favor of greater understanding between those of differing opinions.

but better understanding comes from discussion without the definitives you made and you referred to. To openly discuss the problems flaws weakness of a proposition to strengthen it or debunk it. Nothing you have done up to here confirms to me that you are in favor of greater understanding. You are and you aren't at the same time !

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from stu:



but better understanding comes from discussion without the definitives you made and you referred to. To openly discuss the problems flaws weakness of a proposition to strengthen it or debunk it. Nothing you have done up to here confirms to me that you are in favor of greater understanding. You are and you aren't at the same time !

Truly, you and I are not the same.

My guess is that it would take quite a long time to come to an agreement point at which to start a discussion from on this topic.

You have your first assumptions upon which your world view is built, and I have mine......and those assumptions are clearly not the same.

To each their own.

Cause and effect is in play, each will be rewarded accordingly.

 

[stu]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



Truly, you and I are not the same.

My guess is that it would take quite a long time to come to an agreement point at which to start a discussion from on this topic.

You have your first assumptions upon which your world view is built, and I have mine......and those assumptions are clearly not the same.

To each their own.

Cause and effect is in play, each will be rewarded accordingly.

No. Not each will be rewarded accordingly. You cannot state that as a known. There may well just be NO reward at all for all any one knows

I try hard not to enter debate with precepts but I do hold principles, I try hard to discuss the content and substance. I try not to assume yet always when I talk to the religious , assumptions are flooded at me. I have nothing to prove I have all to discuss. I think it is wrong that religions assume the truth. By any evidence I can find they most definately do no such thing.