CL: calendar spreads more liquid than outrights,why?

Quote from rdg:

local: Is there a reason why the carry isn't arbed in CL?

Not sure but I would guess that delivery is an issue. If longs can't stand for delivery arb beomes impossible and the contract is broken. Less likely for this to happen where there are multiple delivery points.

Bone; you cite bearish fundamentals for the abberations in the crude spreads. Not reasonable, this is not the first commodity to have bearish fundamentals but the only spread I can remember to go beyond carry. If I am wrong please cite an one of the "many" examples.

Regards, local
 
Aluminum and copper.

If there was storage available, the contango gets arbed back towards backwardation. Bearish front end of the curve also explains WTI vs. Brent in the front months.
 
In terms of OP's original question, I gave examples in real time pricing quotes from my trading platform in the live markets of spread liquidity exceeding flat price futures liquidity at the best market bid and offer. Not sure why you insist on highjacking the OP's thread regarding liquidity. Metals, energy, softs, interest rates - all with different forward pricing curves.
 
Quote from bone:

Aluminum and copper.

Just curious, what is full carry for aluminum and copper and where did spreads go beyond ?]

Regards, local
 
local, maybe you should stay on point and provide a legitimate explanation regarding the OP's original question - "broken" or not, the CL calendar is more liquid at the bid and offer than the flat prices futures, and like I demonstrated in the live market the same is true for most other market you can think of like gold, corn, eurodollars, and just about any other futures contract you could mention, 'broken' beyond how you calculate full cost of carry or not.
 
Bone,

I am sorry if I have embarrassed you in any way, however I think you were the one who questioned the term " broken". I understand that this is a part of your business, but really, if you can't recognize what is happening with crude how can you give guidance to "clients"? Some of your comments really expose your limited knowledge of commodity futures e.g. bearish fundamentals responsible for moving a spread past full carry. That is complete nonsense. Ridiculous. My intent was not to highjack this thread, simply to share my experience.

Regards, local
 
local, how is it that the personal attacks vindicate how wrong you were about the liquidity issue? I cite specific bid and offer markets, both contango and backwardation markets, where the spread bid/ask is better than the flat price futures.

In terms of incompetence, the shoe is on your foot and you are in way over your head.

You fail to grasp the how meaningless cost of carry is to the recent dynamic in the crude market. I made specific and detailed mention for the lack of available storage (full up), suppressed refinery demand, and the glut of near-term supply on the market as the fundamental reason for the crude contango. We are back-stroking in crude, but hard commodities are replacing currency reserves and a firm equity market keeps a bid in the back-end of the curve with some anticipation of economic growth later in the year.
 
Let me just state for the record that I have extensive experience basis trading physical versus financial natural gas, electricity, and all sorts of interest rate products - so of course I know how to calculate 'cost of carry' and 'clean' versus 'dirty' prices.

And let me also state that at least within the interest rate complex the necessity for said calculation for any number of on-the-run or off-the-run cash versus futures spread combinations made Michael Bloomberg a very wealthy man.

And positive or negative 'cost of carry' and the relative degree of that carry has little bearing on more or less size being shown in the calendar spread best bid and offer versus the flat price future best bid and offer. Open interest, however, is another matter.
 
Quote from increasenow:

becasue spreads do not move near as much as the outrights...little movement=tighter spreads...more movement=great possibility for wider spreads...

Indeed, Incy... BANG.
 
Quote from bone:

The Nymex contract is not "broken".

I suppose I have some 'local' knowledge in this regard - after four years of trading interest rates with a Full Membership on the floor of the CBOT, I traded energy for several years for a large commercial in the 90's, and have traded both OTC and regulated futures contracts in the energy space for a hedge fund and for private equity pools since then.

Having much more size in the spreads is a common occurrence for any number of markets - indeed, most markets. For example, look at the Eurodollar order book right now at this very instant: ( 8:55pm Central). The GE Mar-Jun Spread is 5275 bid x 36 on the best offer and x 4297 on the next. The GE Mar future is 5509 on the bid, and 3452 on the offer. The June future is 1856 on the bid x 704 on the offer.

The Comex Gold contract Feb-Mar Spread is 184 bid x 72 offered, the Feb future is 1x1, and the Mar future is 6x3 but is also 4 tics wide.

The CBOT Corn Jul-Dec 11 Spread is 7x42 and is 5 tics wide, the Jul 11 future is 9 x 14, 3 tics wide and the Dec 11 future is 14 x 5, 6 tics wide.

The calendar spread is by far and away the most efficient mechanism for any commercial to roll forward their market exposure - for example, many commercials hedge with strips and use the calendar spread to roll it. An ETF uses the calendar spreads to roll forward their exposure (hence, the "Goldman" roll). And of course there are speculators like me who are in just about every spread market electronically available.

There are alot of large spec accounts who roll individual positions forward in order to maintain or adjust their exposure in the marketplace.

There are tons of uses for calendar spreads in the markets. PIMCO, for example, uses STIR futures to synthetically replicate cash position exposure. It is not uncommon for PIMCO to have on well over 100K Eurodollar futures on at any point in time. They very frequently have to adjust forward duration and curve convexity - and for them to do that with the least amount of slippage, they would, for example, sell a Jun11-Dec13 calendar spread to change that forward curve exposure profile.

So, having more size shown in spread markets compared to flat price futures has always been the norm - it was that way in the pits, and it is that way on the screen for most contracts and market sectors.


good post
 
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