Chris Dodd & Bill Richardson: Health Care for Illegal Aliens

Quote from Sparohok:

Then all I'm saying is that ALSO providing very basic, free public health services is likely to actually SAVE money overall. The net cost of very basic free public healthcare could very well be NEGATIVE due to the savings in emergency care. This is not such a hard concept, why do I feel like I'm pulling teeth here?

If you can show that I am wrong, great. I'm not a healthcare economist, I was clear from the very start that I don't have all the answers.
Martin
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there are 2 issues here

1) the micro economic issue of the health care. On this issue you are correct

2) the macro issue, of a major political battle, of Amnesty. Citizens do not want it, plain and simple. And yes, the law is in favor of the citizens, the law is supoposed to reflect the will of the citizens, not some elitist vision of 'what the citizens are supposed to think'. The cost could be 2.5 trillion

2.5 trillion/300 million comes to about $8300 per person, or about $40,000 per family of 4, since many housholds pay no taxes at all

this battle had a major vote less than a month ago, June 28

every concession given, is political momentum

better to lose on issue 1, to maintain position 2
 
<i>1) the micro economic issue of the health care. On this issue you are correct</i>

Thank you. That really was all I wanted to get across.

<i>2) the macro issue, of a major political battle, of Amnesty. Citizens do not want it, plain and simple.</i>

OK, against my better judgement, I'll go ahead and dive into this one head first.

I'm a citizen, and I want what you call amnesty.

I think we'd all be better off if we just opened the border, and encouraged the Mexicans to stay here rather than go home.

This country needs cheap labor. We have an aging population and we are pricing ourselves out of the global labor arbitrage. We can either import cheap labor or export our entire real economy to Latin America and China, along with the tax base that we need to fund your & my retirements.

Don't believe me, look at Japan and Europe. It's happening to them, and it's going to happen to us too, we're just in the earlier stages of the demographic shift. Cheap Turkish labor saved Germany, and cheap Mexican labor could save the US, if we don't blow it by sticking our heads in the sand, demonizing the Mexicans like we once demonized the Irish, and pretending that Mexicans are actually competing with us for jobs we actually want to do.

Martin
 
Quote from Sparohok:

<i>1) the micro economic issue of the health care. On this issue you are correct</i>

Thank you. That really was all I wanted to get across.

<i>2) the macro issue, of a major political battle, of Amnesty. Citizens do not want it, plain and simple.</i>

OK, against my better judgement, I'll go ahead and dive into this one head first.

I'm a citizen, and I want what you call amnesty.

I think we'd all be better off if we just opened the border, and encouraged the Mexicans to stay here rather than go home.

This country needs cheap labor. We have an aging population and we are pricing ourselves out of the global labor arbitrage. We can either import cheap labor or export our entire real economy to Latin America and China, along with the tax base that we need to fund your & my retirements.

Don't believe me, look at Japan and Europe. It's happening to them, and it's going to happen to us too, we're just in the earlier stages of the demographic shift. Cheap Turkish labor saved Germany, and cheap Mexican labor could save the US, if we don't blow it by sticking our heads in the sand, demonizing the Mexicans like we once demonized the Irish, and pretending that Mexicans are actually competing with us for jobs we actually want to do.

Martin
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Cheap labor pertains to the first generation of Mexicans who sneak over to this country. The problem here is that their children and children's children are not going to be satisfied doing the type of work that their forefathers did. I do not see a lot of second and third generation Mexican-American fruitpickers, gardeners or busboys. Does this mean then that we have to keep importing cheap Mexcian labor to our country indefinitely?
I know a place where there is plenty of cheap labor - Mexico.
Maybe that's the reason why they're such an economic powerhouse compared to the USA.
Thank you though for finally admitting that you're the type who advocates illegal immigration and an open border with Mexico.
At least now, we know where you're coming from.
 
Cheap labor pertains to the first generation of Mexicans who sneak over to this country. The problem here is that their children and children's children are not going to be satisfied doing the type of work that their forefathers did.

I hope not. Hopefully they will be better educated, more productive, more valuable labor than their parents. Then next generation's conservatives will have to admit that Mexicans make just as good Americans as the Italians, the Irish, the Jews, and the Chinese that came before them. Dare I dream that next generation's conservatives will be a bit less racist and hypocritical than this generation's.

Does this mean then that we have to keep importing cheap Mexcian labor to our country indefinitely?

As long as our economy can put them to work, sure. But the way things are going, the Mexicans may be importing cheap American labor.

I know a place where there is plenty of cheap labor - Mexico. Maybe that's the reason why they're such an economic powerhouse compared to the USA.

You're not paying attention:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EWW&t=5y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=^GSPC

But you keep on resting on your laurels, it worked for the Romans, surely it will work for us.

Martin
 
gotta like the references to the Italians, Irish, Germans, etc ...

What a cheap parlor trick. During that period there was no federal income tax, social security tax, medicaid tax, etc ... it didn't cost $40,000 a year to educate a family with 4 kids.

Not to mention that wave of immigration was eventually halted and the ones who arrived during it did so as legal citizens.

Paul Krugmann, for crying-out-loud, is on record saying that illegals cost society far more than they produce.

"Open Borders" .. un-f'ing-believeable.
 
Quote from Sparohok:


I'm a citizen, and I want what you call amnesty.

I think we'd all be better off if we just opened the border, and encouraged the Mexicans to stay here rather than go home.

This country needs cheap labor. We have an aging population and we are pricing ourselves out of the global labor arbitrage. We can either import cheap labor or export our entire real economy to Latin America and China, along with the tax base that we need to fund your & my retirements.

Don't believe me, look at Japan and Europe. It's happening to them, and it's going to happen to us too, we're just in the earlier stages of the demographic shift. Cheap Turkish labor saved Germany, and cheap Mexican labor could save the US, if we don't blow it by sticking our heads in the sand, demonizing the Mexicans like we once demonized the Irish, and pretending that Mexicans are actually competing with us for jobs we actually want to do.

Martin
More...

Incredibly ignorant statements here:

"along with the tax base that we need to fund your & my retirements."

I guess you didn't know that illegal aliens by far and large don't pay taxes (govt stats 37$ per alien in 05, if you believe the govt stats). SO you want to open the borders, disregard the laws, and the cultures, essentially disassembling the nation, so your retirement can be funded? How pathetic.

If we don't have borders, what is the point of even having a nation? Or laws? Martin, if we don't have a nation of law abiding tax paying citizens, how are you going to fund your retirement??

Furthermore did you know that many, perhaps the majority of Mexicans here don't want to be Americans, they just want a taxless pay check, the social services, and then to return home.

Martin, if the Mexicans are so demonized as you say, how come they pour over the border at a rate of 11K a night?? People like you want to enslave the Mexicans, but you call it cheap labor, How pathetic . . .
 
Quote from Sparohok:

Cheap labor pertains to the first generation of Mexicans who sneak over to this country. The problem here is that their children and children's children are not going to be satisfied doing the type of work that their forefathers did.

I hope not. Hopefully they will be better educated, more productive, more valuable labor than their parents. Then next generation's conservatives will have to admit that Mexicans make just as good Americans as the Italians, the Irish, the Jews, and the Chinese that came before them. Dare I dream that next generation's conservatives will be a bit less racist and hypocritical than this generation's.

Does this mean then that we have to keep importing cheap Mexcian labor to our country indefinitely?

As long as our economy can put them to work, sure. But the way things are going, the Mexicans may be importing cheap American labor.

I know a place where there is plenty of cheap labor - Mexico. Maybe that's the reason why they're such an economic powerhouse compared to the USA.

You're not paying attention:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EWW&t=5y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=^GSPC

But you keep on resting on your laurels, it worked for the Romans, surely it will work for us.

Martin
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some people, like yourself simply cannot grasp the concept of a country that started out sparsly populated

suppose your town built a new pool

would you continue to add water at the same rate that you started, into perpetuity? would you call anyone who even broached the concept of capacity as 'poolist'?

no, my family didnt 'slam the door shut' behind us

but, the population is now NINE TIMES what it was when they came here - are we FOREVER barred, from ever discussing capacity? If we are, who, decided that?

where, in the constitution, does it say that citizens shall have no say in our own immigration policies?

where in the constitution, is an alternate authority of law and policy mentioned? (such as 'this constitution shall be the only authority, unless a foreign nation gives us a statue, and then years later an immigrant puts a poem on it')
 
The other point is that the absolute number of illegal mexicans is staggering. It totally dwarfs the numbers of european immigrants who came to a far different country.

I reject the accusation that it is racist to want to preserve the basic character of your country. Just as we have a right to insist that we are not overwhelmed by muslim immigration, which would alter our character as a Christian and tolerant nation, we have a right to insist that our character as an english-speaking country with european roots be preserved. Why would anyone want to turn us into a diluted version of mexico?

This should be the battleground for the next presidential election. It is by far the most important issue facing our country. Too bad the republicans gave up the high ground without a fight by supporting the Kennedy amnesty plan.
 
Quote from Sparohok:

Dare I dream that next generation's conservatives will be a bit less racist and hypocritical than this generation's.

Racist - I just love the way people throw that word around. Let me ask you then - would you still consider somebody who is against ILLEGAL immigration but for LEGAL immigration a racist?
Or somebody who just believes in the rule of law?

As long as our economy can put them to work, sure. But the way things are going, the Mexicans may be importing cheap American labor.

If our economy should ever experience a recession, would these illegals then be willing to go back to Mexico voluntarily, or would they stay on and continue using our social services?

You're not paying attention:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EWW&t=5y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=^GSPC

Nice chart. Now will somebody please tell the Mexicans how great their economy is going and to just stay put and stop sneaking in through the darn boder to the USA?

But you keep on resting on your laurels, it worked for the Romans, surely it will work for us.

Speaking of the Romans, they not only had cheap labor, they had virtually FREE labor courtesy of their slaves. Slaves brought in from foreign lands. Didn't do them much good, did it?

"The mass influx of slaves during this time period first was a sign of great wealth and power, but later destabilized an already fragile Roman class system. Farms originally run by small business families throughout Italy were soon gobbled up and replaced by enormous slave run plantations owned by the aristocratic elite. Cheap slave labor replaced work for the common man and the roles of the unemployed massive grew to epidemic proportions. These issues had a great destabilizing effect on the social system which had a direct role in the demise of the Republic. As the rift between Senatorial elite (optimates) and social reformers (populares) grew, the use of the unemployed, landless, yet citizen mobs were an overwhelming ploy grinding away at the ability of the Senate to govern. Though there are many factors involved in the Fall of the Republic, slavery and its effects rippled throughout every aspect of that turbulent time period."

http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-slavery.php

Keep dreaming that cheap Mexican labor is going to fund your retirement.
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I knew I was going to regret it. :)

"Open border" was a poor choice of words. I don't support illegal immigration or the policy of turning a blind eye to a practice that approximates slavery. Tearing down border security but keeping all other policies the same would be a disaster -- although in my defense I didn't propose any such thing -- you guys just went ahead and jumped to conclusions.

What I do support is a path to US citizenship for Mexicans so that they can become Americans. They are already here, they are already working, and they are not doing jobs Americans want to do. Unemployment is low and America is badly in need of cheap labor. We should allow them to become citizens, bring their families, pay their taxes, etc. Those who would rather get paid under the table and repatriate their earnings to Mexico should be prosecuted and sent home. So, I'm all for strict enforcement against illegal aliens, as long as they have a way to become citizens if they want to. It doesn't have to be easy, it doesn't have to be an open door, but if it's all stick and no carrot then it is tantamount to slavery.

I think the now-dead immigration legislation was a pretty good piece of law, far better than the status quo. Sadly the conservative base broke ranks with George Bush the one time in his entire administration that he was right.

Martin
 
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