China to Europe: You are just too damn lazy.

[Grandluxe]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

The west is rich because it operates a system of liberal democracy with property rights, rule of law, relatively low corruption, reasonable business freedoms, and protections for individual and minority rights. China is not rich because it operates a repressive dictatorship with weak property rights, corrupt courts and public officials, and lack of protection for individual and human rights etc.

Numerous studies and surveys, such as the HDI index, Legatum, UN surveys etc, show a very strong correlation between individual and business freedoms, and the level of prosperity, social development, and overall happiness in a society.

The reason these two systems are operated is because the people living in and governing the different societies have chosen it. The people in the west choose it by their votes every 4-5 years, and the people in China chose it by either supporting, or failing to successfully overthrow and replace what is a very ineffective, unstable, and repressive form of autocratic rule.

If the current generation of Chinese really believe that the west just won a lottery ticket, rather than being a model to copy (as Singapore's leaders and people realised and implemented very successfully), then they will continue to miss the opportunity to achieve parity or superiority to the west. Considering they have the Hong Kong example in their own back yard (Chinese people living under a western system for a century, totally outperforming Chinese people under a Chinese system over the same time), it is even more inexcusable folly. The appropriate response is "Europe to China: you're too damn blind and foolish"

Really?

Is Europe begging China for money or the other way around?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...illion-euro-as-leaders-seal-eu-crisis-deal.do

Singapore is a capitalist country but that does not mean it has copied the western political system and ideas of individual freedom as paramount above everything else.

I don't claim to be an expert on Asian affairs either, but from what I know, the East Asian developmental model has been decidedly different.

This is actually way off topic...but.

South Korea achieved the highest rate of growth and industrialised under a military dictatorship led by Park Chung Hee. In fact the first civillian president of South korea did not occur until Kim Young sam won the election in the 1990's.

Taiwan never held direct presidential elections and was virtually a one party dictatorship from 1949 until the 1990's where Lee teng Hui won the presidency. By this time, Taiwan had already industrialised and beame one of the 4 asian economic tigers.

The LDP has ruled Japan since 1955 and has won every single election until 2009. While having free and fair elections, Japan is widely considered to be a one-party dominant state.

Ditto for Singapore.

Ironically enough, the old British colony of Hong Kong is thriving today because it is the gateway to the China market. Look at HKG port traffic after the liberalization of Chinese economy, it has freaking exploded.

If you actually know what you are talking about, You will know that Lee Kuan Yew, long time prime minister of Singapore publicly as well as in his books repudiated the Western political model in favor of an East asian development system that has placed different ideals and values over the western one.

There is no western triumphalism. The East Asian model has proved to be a worthy competitor.

You should read the very highly regarded Kishore Mahubani who has widely elucidated this viewpoint.

 

[dtan1e]

Quote from Lights:

are you kidding. most of them in SF are H1B fresh off the boat immigrants

if china is so great then why are the best minds flocking to the US? i don't know how to explain further without getting into the ugly details, u have to go live, work or do business in china then u will understand

 

[Lights]

Because the US has a shortage of skilled engineers and the pay is alot better.

Quote from dtan1e:

if china is so great then why are the best minds flocking to the US? i don't know how to explain further without getting into the ugly details, u have to go live, work or do business in china then u will understand

 

[dtan1e]

Quote from Lights:

Because the US has a shortage of skilled engineers and the pay is alot better.

asked yourself have u lived, work or do business in china or have u even been there?

 

[Lights]

Yes. i said the pay in the US is better is why they come over.

Quote from dtan1e:

asked yourself have u lived, work or do business in china or have u even been there?

 

[zdreg]

Quote from dtan1e:

if china is so great then why are the best minds flocking to the US? i don't know how to explain further without getting into the ugly details, u have to go live, work or do business in china then u will understand

there is a reverse brain which has been going on for the last few years
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/reverse-brain-drain-in-the-u-s/11027/
http://lincolntribune.com/?p=21503
A Reverse Brain Drain: The United States, long the beneficiary of talented immigrants, needs to act quickly to keep these valuable workers from leaving ... from: Issues in Science and Technology by Vivek Wadhwa

furthermore the brightest with entrepreneurial skills are headed home with ambitions not to be millionaires but billionaires.

 

[dtan1e]

Quote from zdreg:

there is a reverse brain which has been going on for the last few years
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/the-daily-need/reverse-brain-drain-in-the-u-s/11027/
http://lincolntribune.com/?p=21503

furthermore the brightest with entrepreneurial skills are headed home with ambitions not to be millionaires but billionaires.

so thats where your knowledge comes from, u read about it? do u know how business are done in china? have u worked with any chinese billionaire before? have u ever engaged in any negotiations with the chinese? have u dealt with their authorities? do u know anything about their legal system? do u even know how their system operate? since we claim to be traders here, do u even know how their financial system works? do u know anything about their sovereign funds? do u know anyone that works there? do u even know anyone in china? if u don't know a single thing how do u know what chinese people think?

 

[heech]

Quote from dtan1e:

if china is so great then why are the best minds flocking to the US? i don't know how to explain further without getting into the ugly details, u have to go live, work or do business in china then u will understand

The best minds are flocking to the US because a) the US has the best universities in the world, b) the US has a far higher standard of living + pay than China. Is this really a surprise? Is there anyone debating this specific point with you?

We're talking about where (we think) China is going, not where it is right now.

 

[dtan1e]

Quote from heech:

The best minds are flocking to the US because a) the US has the best universities in the world, b) the US has a far higher standard of living + pay than China. Is this really a surprise? Is there anyone debating this specific point with you?

We're talking about where (we think) China is going, not where it is right now.

talk is cheap why don't u get your whole family and move to china?

 

[heech]

Quote from dtan1e:

talk is cheap why don't u get your whole family and move to china?

Not sure why you want to make this a personal fight. If you have a point, make it. If you don't have one, shut up.

I'll just throw a few points out there... even though, again, not my intention to make this discussion about ME.

First of all, I own a home in China, and I'm frequently there for work + pleasure. I am Chinese + born in China.

Second of all, I (currently) make much more in the US than I could for a comparable job in China. So, my permanent residence is (currently) in the US. I don't think this will change over the course of my career (the next 10-20 years.)

Finally, very likely my wife and I will have our kids do at least some of their early schooling in China, because I think it's very possible, over the course of THEIR career, that they'd make more in China than in the US.