Cheney Throws Bush Under The Bush

[jem]

I think its cute you get to excercise your prejudice against Christianity but then to cover the obvious flaw in the thrust of your argument you are forced to note... of course torture is not what Jesus preached.

I also note your use of sleight of hand / Propaganda trick again... like Obomneycare... You interchange Catholic Church with Christian Church. Because again your critique make less sense if you maintian fidelity to the the truth.

I would also note that some of much of the inquisition was carried on by govt like bodies on behalf of the Govt not the Church. And based on my reading of history much of the Crusades were in response to conversion of entire territories by sword by Islam. How do you think Islam spread back then?


I am sure you are not ready to accept truth Piezoe but almost everyone knows that at times the Catholic Church has had evil men running it. (even recent times). Its odd that leftists think this is a revelation even though in just about 10 percent of Hollywood movies we get a lecture about it.


Now back to politics...
So really Piezoe your issue should be with a larger govt entity filled with guys with questionable morality and sexual preference running things from a distance instead of letting the local parishes govern themselves.

Finally... I think suspect you are nuts if you think Jesus would tell us to sit back and let terrorists kill children and innocent people. There were millions of Christians that seem to agree that the world needed defending from Nazi's... surely you understand that justice must be more complicated than you the crap you just wrote. It was not a Christian duty for American to sit back and let Nazi's commit atrocities throughout Europe? was it?

Finally, if your point it there may only be a few Christians or others who seem to merit life everlasting in the presence of love, light perfection or however you see it... I agree with you. Isn't that the point.
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The above was Jem's response to Covertibility's comment that "Christianity sure hasn't changed much over the years."

Jem, the truth of Convertibility's remark, though painful to many Christians such as yourself, is self-evident. Throughout history there have been many examples of professed Christians engaging in what by any reasonable definition is torture. I don't need to mention these many incidences to you. You know them well.

The condemnations of Christianity, brought on by the actions of the Christian Church and churches, and individuals professing to be Christians, over the centuries, is far more justified than you want to admit. Many past tortures were done in the name of religion, and some were sanctioned by the organized church! Christianity has a pathetic record when it comes to torture! Equally bad are actions in wars -- flame throwers, napalm, cluster bombs, etc. -- routinely sanctioned or condoned by those professing to be Christians.

It would be nice to hear you acknowledge the obvious rather than try to deflect attention from the short comings of your own religion by pointing out that other religions are equally despicable. Your deflection of truth does not make us non-Christians any more respectful of Christianity; it has the opposite effect. What would gain some respect for your position, would be a simple acknowledgement of the false teachings of Christianity and the actions, over the centuries, of those who profess to be Christians that fly in the face of Christ's teachings.

When you say: "Do you support conversion by the sword? Do you support flying planes into builidings [sic]." you have made a transparent attempt to side-step the issue of the horrendous tortures perpetrated by confessed Christians over the centuries, including our current century, and the actions of our current President! You have made an attempt to deflect criticism by an ad hominum like attack on another equally repugnant religion. (Has it occurred to you that three of the most repugnant religions practiced today have a common root?)

According to the teachings of Christ -- I hate to be forced to lecture you on this topic, but you thoroughly deserve it! -- the Christian response to, e.g., a terrorist attack such as 911, would be to forgive your enemies, and recognize, and stop engaging in, the actions that brought on such as attack!

Of course you can quote some Bible passage that would seem to justify you as a Christian, but if you do that while sanctioning or condoning clearly non-Christian behavior, those who do understand the teachings of Christ will recognize your delusion.

It seems to me that the number of Christians in the U.S. today must be numbered in the low thousands, not in the millions as often claimed. Even though I am an atheist, I admire and respect true Christians who follow the teachings of Christ. As an atheist, I often am a better Christian in my beliefs and actions than many of you who claim to believe in God and profess to be Christians. Christianity, as it was practiced in the past and as it is now practiced, is a thoroughly hypocritical religion. Acknowledging that, and accepting truth, ought to be a first step to becoming a true Christian.

 

[piezoe]

The entire congress? In the purest sense of the word, no. Did Feinstein? Absolutely. Did every member of congress in any type of leadership position? Absolutely. The rest chose to remain willfully ignorant. They knew. The press knew. Anyone with the remotest of connections knew.

While the torture was going on or later?

 

[piezoe]

I think its cute you get to excercise your prejudice against Christianity but then to cover the obvious flaw in the thrust of your argument you are forced to note... of course torture is not what Jesus preached.

I also note your use of sleight of hand / Propaganda trick again... like Obomneycare... You interchange Catholic Church with Christian Church. Because again your critique make less sense if you maintian fidelity to the the truth.

I would also note that some of much of the inquisition was carried on by govt like bodies on behalf of the Govt not the Church. And based on my reading of history much of the Crusades were in response to conversion of entire territories by sword by Islam. How do you think Islam spread back then?


I am sure you are not ready to accept truth Piezoe but almost everyone knows that at times the Catholic Church has had evil men running it. (even recent times). Its odd that leftists think this is a revelation even though in just about 10 percent of Hollywood movies we get a lecture about it.


Now back to politics...
So really Piezoe your issue should be with a larger govt entity filled with guys with questionable morality and sexual preference running things from a distance instead of letting the local parishes govern themselves.

Finally... I think suspect you are nuts if you think Jesus would tell us to sit back and let terrorists kill children and innocent people. There were millions of Christians that seem to agree that the world needed defending from Nazi's... surely you understand that justice must be more complicated than you the crap you just wrote. It was not a Christian duty for American to sit back and let Nazi's commit atrocities throughout Europe? was it?

Finally, if your point it there may only be a few Christians or others who seem to merit life everlasting in the presence of love, light perfection or however you see it... I agree with you. Isn't that the point.
.

So now that you've gotten that off your chest, would you care to address the points I raised regarding your response to Covertibility's observation that "Christianity sure hasn't changed much over the years."

 

[piezoe]

Pie, I hate to always be arguing with you, since you seem like a decent and intelligent person. Sp why do you take an unfair swipe at Christians?

First, you criticize horrific misconduct that took place centuries ago under the auspices of what was then the Roman Catholic Church. It hardly was representative of all Christians, then or now, and was as much a political as religious body. Anytime humans are involved in an oirganization, even a church, there will be errors, evil and mistakes. It's unfair to place the blame on religion, just like it would be unfair to blame the Holocaust or Stalin's murders on "government."

It always amuses me to see liberals read the entire code of liberalism and socialism into the New Testament. I can assure you there is not one word in there about how to respond to terrorists attempting to kill large numbers of innocents or trying to impose an alien religion on a people by force. The Old Testament, by contrast, has numerous examples of how to deal with such situations and they usually end with the phrase "they put them all to the sword."

I'm not including all religion in my remarks. I am specifically referring to the Christian religion, and I mentioned that there are at least two other related religions that are equally repugnant. And I am referring to recent and on going events as much as to those of the distant past. Torture and killing is an ongoing Christian tradition! There are many church going, professed Christians still today in favor of killing, torture and war. This kind of thinking is the rule rather than the exception among Christians, even though it is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. You would have to be deaf dumb and blind not to recognize that. According to the modern Christian church you are a Christian both while sitting in a pew on Sunday morning and while sitting in a cockpit at 5,000 feet dropping napalm. I recognize that there are some sects of the Christian church that oppose torture, killing, and war. They are in the minority, and not characteristic of Christians in general.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

Pie, you are overgeneralizing from some specific statements in the New Testament about how to deal with personal affronts, eg "turn the other cheek."

If you read the Old Testament, there is considerable violence and war. There is a recognition that evil must be confronted, not tolerated or appeased. The men of the New Testament were intimately familiar with the Old Testament. There are many subtle references to it througout the New Testament. Yet there is no effort to disassociate from the history of war and conflict recounted there.

The Catholic Church has done many studies on the so-called "just war" doctrine in an effort to reconcile this potential dilemma.

 

[jem]

1. Its not the rule of Christian Curches or Christ. Virtually all Christian preachers preach love and are anti war. I am sure you can find some outlier but you will also see Christian's speak out against the outliers.

In short virtually all real Christian Churches are anti war in general and many are against all war.
To blame war and torture on Christianity or Christ's teachings is mixed up.

2. To say some Christians are in favor of war is not the same. Some Cronies are Christians and many of our leaders are nominally Christian because the vast majority of the voters are. But even the last war had to be pitched as an anti WMD war. We simply had no idea the war would be executed by sending solidiers around in Jeeps to get blown up while the cronies looted the oil mark and passed out billions to themselves.

3. Therefore, seeing that our wars are not justly prosecuted I would not be surprised if the vast majority of Christian's are now more anti war than ever. Most Christian wives and mothers have always been anti war so this is not really tough to realize.

In short if anyone is to blame for some seriously unjust wars I would look to Carl Rove type Cronies and nominal Christians.

Drone strikes, partial wars, undeclared wars, torture... that is the mark of the Cronies milking war for as much money as possible. I do not see that as the mark of Christ.

Note to Piezoe I did address the claim about war and Christians in history.

I'm not including all religion in my remarks. I am specifically referring to the Christian religion, and I mentioned that there are at least two other related religions that are equally repugnant. And I am referring to recent and on going events as much as to those of the distant past. Torture and killing is an ongoing Christian tradition! There are many church going, professed Christians still today in favor of killing, torture and war. This kind of thinking is the rule rather than the exception among Christians, even though it is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. You would have to be deaf dumb and blind not to recognize that. According to the modern Christian church you are a Christian both while sitting in a pew on Sunday morning and while sitting in a cockpit at 5,000 feet dropping napalm. I recognize that there are some sects of the Christian church that oppose torture, killing, and war. They are in the minority, and not characteristic of Christians in general.

 

[piezoe]

1. Its not the rule of Christian Curches or Christ. Virtually all Christian preachers preach love and are anti war. I am sure you can find some outlier but you will also see Christian's speak out against the outliers.

In short virtually all real Christian Churches are anti war in general and many are against all war.
To blame war and torture on Christianity or Christ's teachings is mixed up.

2. To say some Christians are in favor of war is not the same. Some Cronies are Christians and many of our leaders are nominally Christian because the vast majority of the voters are. But even the last war had to be pitched as an anti WMD war. We simply had no idea the war would be executed by sending solidiers around in Jeeps to get blown up while the cronies looted the oil mark and passed out billions to themselves.

3. Therefore, seeing that our wars are not justly prosecuted I would not be surprised if the vast majority of Christian's are now more anti war than ever. Most Christian wives and mothers have always been anti war so this is not really tough to realize.

In short if anyone is to blame for some seriously unjust wars I would look to Carl Rove type Cronies and nominal Christians.

Drone strikes, partial wars, undeclared wars, torture... that is the mark of the Cronies milking war for as much money as possible. I do not see that as the mark of Christ.

Note to Piezoe I did address the claim about war and Christians in history.

Your remarks cheered me Jem. I hope that your judgment about what is being preached in the "Christian" churches is correct. But when I see the U.S. flag flown right along side the Christian flag in protestant sanctuaries, I can't help but think of Nazi Germany and out of control nationalism.

 

[dbphoenix]

Your remarks cheered me Jem. I hope that your judgment about what is being preached in the "Christian" churches is correct. But when I see the U.S. flag flown right along side the Christian flag in protestant sanctuaries, I can't help but think of Nazi Germany and out of control nationalism.

What "virtually all" Christian churches and "virtually all" Christian preachers may or may not do is not particularly relevant. What is relevant is that virtually all those responsible for carrying out this torture program were/are Christian. And so far I haven't seen a big uproar from the Christian rank-and-file objecting to what was done, particularly Christian conservatives.

 

[jem]

So on every other threads leftists in unison declare this is not a Christian nation...
but all of sudden when a few people torture we become a Christian nation? What juvenile argumentation.

But to get to the real point... I tell you what... I don't envy Obama having to use drones which may risk collateral damage or start wars in the middle east. I don't envy the decision military leaders have to make or the actions snipers take. I don't understand how a sniper (i know a few former snipers but not well enough to get in their heads) or private solider at a embassy could reconcile his belief in God with his actions of taking life... but I am not going to call them all non Christians for it.

Closer to home for me, could I ever argue for the death penalty? not normally, if ever. Do I think Christians could still be prosecutors and judges... sure.

Does that make me a better Christian? no. but here is the thing, like education the more you have the more you know you need.

What "virtually all" Christian churches and "virtually all" Christian preachers may or may not do is not particularly relevant. What is relevant is that virtually all those responsible for carrying out this torture program were/are Christian. And so far I haven't seen a big uproar from the Christian rank-and-file objecting to what was done, particularly Christian conservatives.

 

[dbphoenix]

So on every other threads leftists in unison declare this is not a Christian nation...
but all of sudden when a few people torture we become a Christian nation? What juvenile argumentation.

Once again you transmorgrify what you read into whatever melds into your worldview.

Of course this is a Christian nation. No one claims it is not.

A few people? Really? And the idea that we "become a Christian nation" because "a few people torture" is idiotic.

The fact remains that those who were responsible were and are Christian. Being Christian did not prevent them from approving and participating in these atrocities. And many Christians, such as those who populate this forum, think it was all a grand idea.

Does this mean that there is something inherently wrong with Christianity? That's debatable. But what is not debatable is that these Christians were and are extraordinarily hypocritical.