Cheap Products vs. High Wages... Americans Want BOTH!

[gnome]

Quote from nutmeg:

"... You have to pay your dues. Saving is for chumps when you have a credit card in your pocket is the wrong attitude.

Maybe you DON'T have to pay your dues.

To become financially independent takes a long time living below your means, saving and investing for most of us. And even if you decide to "go that route", there is no assurance you will succeed.

So, why not "charge now and enjoy the good life"? After all, it's easy to negotiate a $30,000 delinquent tax bill down to a $500 settlement or get your credit card balance cut in half if you just NOW promise to pay something.

Actually, I think the irresponsible, "woe is me... I owed $50,000 in taxes but spent it instead.. and now don't have the money... and the I charged $50,000 on my credit cards, but can't pay" group have "gotten over" on the system.

When someone negotiates down his tax bill, the Gummint needs to run a bigger deficit to make up for that short fall. In other words, those owed taxes which were not paid are then thrust onto the backs of the rest of us taxpayers in the form of inflation and currency debasement.

Perhaps we should resurrect the concept of "debtors' prison"...

America, what a country!

 

[LodeRunner]

Quote from blackjack007:

the same people who whine about how jobs are being lost to developing countries are the same hypocrites who'd gladly pay $19 for a toaster oven made in china, a $150 lcd monitor made in korea, or a $14 shirt made in philippines instead of a $39 shirt made in the usa.

A true economist realizes that boycotting is essentially useless. The producers of the world cannot be made transformed by consumer boycotting--there is FAR too much incentive "cheat", on the side of both the consumer and the producer. This is especially true in times of economic hardships, when the middle class begins to shrink a little. Do you think there is ANY family in this country that would rather significantly downsize their lifestyle rather than buy nonAmerican goods?

Hell, do you realize how extremely difficult it is to even FIND nonAmerican goods? If you eliminate online shopping, I'd have to say that the vast majority of Americans simply do not have access to American goods like clothing, electronics, etc.

The pro-protectionism camp has little in common with those pathetic little "grass roots" anti-Walmart guys. The power of legislation can reduce or stop outsourcing. Boycotting will accomplish nothing, because you can't convince significant numbers of people to act against their own interests for very long.

(This isn't a pro-protectionist post. I'm still early in my economic education, and am still undecided on the issue.)

 

[Joab]

Quote from wutangfinancial:

The very smartest people are in the U.S., no question. But the median person in Canada is a million times smarter.

Extremely well put.

When I deal with the US I deal with some extremely bright people BUT then I am shocked at the stupidity of the masses.

America has a huge intellectual divide.



gnome - this would explain your frustration

 

[LodeRunner]

Quote from peilthetraveler:

Eventually all these people that buy 3 dollar shirts at wal-mart will finally catch on that those shirts only last 3 washes and if they had bought a 20 dollar american made shirt that lasts 100 washes, they would be saving money.

Please tell me you are joking.

I thought Japan had buried this retarded line of thought (primarily with cars and electronics) long ago.

In case you missed the 80s and 90s:

1. NonAmerican quality is often lower, but the quality is almost never proportionally lower. In your example, the 3 dollar shirt more likely lasts 50-70 washes. Still clearly inferior to the American product, yet its value is clearly much higher.

2. Remember that outsourced quality control can be cheaper, too. Thus, nonAmerican quality can improve dramatically over time. Again, our prime example is Japan. I don't know what their quality was like in the 60s and 70s, but I'm betting it was pretty laughable. Fast forward to today, and I actually saw a Ford commercial that said this: "And yes, our quality is just as good as Toyota's now." JUST AS GOOD AS. "...now." Wow. That has to be one of the most pathetically overt admissions of inferiority I've ever heard in a nationally televised commercial.

If that was too many words for you, let me try something else:

I actually have a $3 Walmart shirt (actually, it was $3.50.) Lord knows where it was made; certainly not here. It's lasted at least two dozen washes, probably more, and it still looks pretty decent. It's only faded slightly, and the stitching remains strong and tight.

 

[gnome]

Canadians are not "a million times smarter than Americans"... average IQ for both countries is virtually the same.




"... Average IQ of Countries

The average IQ in the United States is usually set at 100. Groups within the US score different average IQ's, such as 115 for college grads or 85 for African-Americans. Similarly, average IQ varies from country to country, shown in the 2002 book IQ and the Wealth of Nations (sets Britain at 100):

Hong Kong 107 Korea, South 106 Japan 105 Taiwan 104 Singapore 104 Austria 102 Germany 102 Italy 102 Netherlands 102 Sweden 101 Switzerland 101 Belgium 100 China 100 New Zealand 100 U. Kingdom 100 Hungary 99 Poland 99 Australia 98 Denmark 98 France 98 Norway 98 United States 98 Canada 97 Czech Republic 97 Finland 97 Spain 97 Argentina 96 Russia 96 Slovakia 96 Uruguay 96 Portugal 95 Slovenia 95 Israel 94 Romania 94 Bulgaria 93 Ireland 93 Greece 92 Malaysia 92 Thailand 91 Croatia 90 Peru 90 Turkey 90 Colombia 89 Indonesia 89 Suriname 89 Brazil 87 Iraq 87 Mexico 87 Samoa (Western) 87 Tonga 87 Lebanon 86 Philippines 86 Cuba 85 Morocco 85 Fiji 84 Iran 84 Marshall Islands 84 Puerto Rico 84 Egypt 83 India 81 Ecuador 80 Guatemala 79 Barbados 78 Nepal 78 Qatar 78 Zambia 77 Congo (Brazz) 73 Uganda 73 Jamaica 72 Kenya 72 South Africa 72 Sudan 72 Tanzania 72 Ghana 71 Nigeria 67 Guinea 66 Zimbabwe 66 Congo (Zaire) 65 Sierra Leone 64 Ethiopia 63 Equatorial Guinea 59..."

 

[indexer]

Ross Perot has outsourced more jobs through his company Perot Systems than were lost through NAFTA.

No one seems to have called him out on this. He was interviewed on CNBC recently about his predictions and he quickly changed the subject to the national debt. Thats all he wanted to talk about.

Quote from makloda:

Anybody remember Ross Perot's 'giant sucking sound' that was supposed to transfer millions of jobs to Mexico with the start of NAFTA? Never happened. Research shows that net-net, NAFTA created (a small number of) jobs in the US.

 

[Intelinvestor]

The problem is American made products are inferior in terms of quality. I wouldn't
buy high priced American made products
such as cars, digital cameras and etc. I would
only consider them at a discount price.

Toyota or Honda's quality is way higher
than GM or Ford.

So is Canon over Kodak.

Quote from peilthetraveler:

Eventually all these people that buy 3 dollar shirts at wal-mart will finally catch on that those shirts only last 3 washes and if they had bought a 20 dollar american made shirt that lasts 100 washes, they would be saving money.

 

[Renegen]

Quote from makloda:

Looks like I am replying to clowns here that have never seen a university from the inside. "They can say anything". They can, exactly once and then never again. You fool have any idea how research is conducted and what "peer review" is?

Paul Krugman, Princeton Economist:



P.S. You know what human capital means is about at all? By the sound of it ("human capital extensive" vs. "capital intensive and labor intensive") you don't. For a list of Becker's publications: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Becker

There is a big difference between saying that trade with China has had a net effect on american employment and quoting Krugman that describes an extremely obvious fact. Note he used the word SELLING technology. Tell me, can this sale last forever? Economists have this common problem where they concentrate too much on the past.

And don't give me the bullshit that I don't know who he is, I took his class in college and have his book on trade in my library.

And you have yet to show me that a "knowledge economy" can give work to 150 million americans. Are you telling me every american worker will work for Apple now? Nevermind the fact Apple has dozens of suppliers and most of them in Asia, the next technology experts are all in Asia and soon they will have the brands. Japanese cars?

Prove to me a knowledge economy can work without any industrial base or technological expertise(Silicon Valley) of any kind.

And please don't quote some unverified theories, it makes you look like a 1st year economics student.

edit: Has anyone seen how Chrysler has fallen? They don't even make their own cars anymore, they "rebrand" them.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_34/b4097028707228.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

 

[mgookin]

Quote from Intelinvestor:

The problem is American made products are inferior in terms of quality. I wouldn't
buy high priced American made products
such as cars, digital cameras and etc. I would
only consider them at a discount price.

Toyota or Honda's quality is way higher
than GM or Ford.

So is Canon over Kodak.

I disagree on quality on American made products.

In 1988 I bought a brand new Ford F-150 4x4 and put 300,000 miles on it doing no more maintenance then changing oil. I owned several companies one of which was land development/ construction contracting. Many a young lad learned to drive a clutch on that truck and it often was loaded with 7,000 - 8,000 lbs. Yes we broke the springs out of the rear end but that would happen on any truck; I sent it to a spring shop and they put in extra leaves and heavier steel. I think I also bought an alternator for it once and a battery. I gave it to some neighborhood college students in 2005 when I bought a F-250 V-10 4x4 only because I got such a good deal ($20,500 brand new) @ 3% interest with nothing down and I needed to tow a 31' center console. Other Fords include (all new) 2003 Crown Victoria LX Sport (never a problem) and 2007 Mustang (never a problem). American made products are highly engineered and warranted and protected by consumer law; the companies have to deliver quality.

Now take this piece of shit Mexican made Ford roller skate (Focus or similar) next door that she bought about 2 years ago. Last week she pulls in the driveway with tape holding a back window up because it fell off the track and fell down. I agree some American companies sell shit products but those shit products are a result of NAFTA, WTO, etc. made in foreign countries.

When I lived up north a teenage son of my friend was dating a girl whose dad was high up at Bethlehem Steel. The kid asked him for a job. He told him to come on down and fill out an application but don't drive that Toyota pick-up to the steel plant. The kid thought he was kidding. He drove in to the plant in that Toyota and walked in to personnel and filled out an application. He came out and his truck was gone; we think they melted it in the furnace! He never got the job. The plant is closed today because of the treasonous trade policies of the US. Camden Yards baseball park was built within site of that plant and the steel came from Japan when they built the stadium. Many people boycott that stadium and will never go to a game there.

I would much rather pay $10 for an item at mom-and-pop's neighborhood store then give Wal-Mart $6 for something they bought from China.

A local man here in town invented a fishing rod holder that holds about a dozen rods/ reels and stands up on the floor in a circle and is easy to carry/ put in the boat/ car/ etc. He had a factory here in town and made this product for $12 and sold it to Wal-Mart for $15 and they sold it for $19.99. Then they tell him he needs to make it cheaper; they only want to pay $8 and still sell it for $19.99. So he shuts down his factory here and outsources it to China where they make it on the cheap and sell it to him for $6 and he sells it to Wal-Mart for $8. The greedy fucking bastards at Wal-Mart are pushing jobs out of the USA.

NAFTA and WTO push jobs out of the USA. Don't believe the lies your government tells you. It's all about big business. If Wal-Mart makes more money the stock market goes up; that's all government cares about. They don't give one rat's ass about individuals or towns which go to zero as a result of unfair trade.

 

[Jeannette]

Americans now watch television an average of 4 hours and 35 minutes every day—90 minutes more than the world average. I think the reason Americans watch more TV, isn't because they're stupid or lazy. Basically the best television programming is made in America for Americans. The rest of the world watches mostly American programming as well but we aren't as interested because it isn't made for us.

Television depends mostly on consumerism. If the Americans are watching too much TV, the commercials will compel them to consume too many goods.

If America consumes more than it produces, the extra goods have to be imported. Even if everyone stopped buying Foreign cars, it wouldn't solve the problem. The problem is that the average American produces $40,000 a year but spends $50,000 a year because they've been brainwashed by over 30 hours a week of television to buy, buy, buy. The extra $10,000 a year of goods have to come from outside of America.

The way I see it is that China and a number of other countries are winning an economic war with the United States. They continue to accumulate more and more debt from the United States. Once they've accumulated as much debt as they can, they'll wait for a major downturn in the American economy which will drive down the real estate and stock prices. They can then use all the debt they've accumulated to buy up everything in sight. Then they've won the war and they've created a slave state out of America without any blood shed.

If Americans want to stop this from happening, I think they should take all their televisions and throw them in the water and call it a Boston TV party.