Chavez: U.S. planning to invade Venezuela

[Optionpro007]

I think Chavez would be a thorn even without oil, just like Castro has been for 40 years.

Bush is as guilty, as all his predecessors and all politicians around the world for helping out "their friends".

But I don't believe he ventured into liberating Iraq only to help halliburtons and others.

Quite the contrary, doing what he did could have easily cost him the presidency. Most politicians (unfortunately) are more into keeping power than taking what they think is an important cause and following it up against major controversy.

I will give you, Bush looks like an idiot, doesn't speak with the fluidity the head of the most powerful nation in the world should and has many others flaws similar to all other politicians.

But, still I support his vision for a better world, specially for the middle east, taking out "cancerous" cells, even if major surgery is required.

Obviously, it is too early to tell if what he has done will be recognized as a major win for the civilized world.

Only time and the strength of the free people in Iraq will tell. I would bet on them, even if times are hard for them right now and the forseeable future.

I must run, thank you for your apology.

Have a great weekend.

Quote from mhashe:

I apologize for misconstruing your post. I was under the assumption from the wording on the post that you condoned an invasion. As much as I dislike the imbecile Chavez who I think is taking Venezuela down the shitter under the pretext of trying to help his poor, his rhethoric in no way justifies an invasion. It's about high time people realized that we are held hostage to tin-pot imbeciles like Chavez because of our love affair with oil. Now I ask you this, would Chavez really be a thorn if we did'nt need his oil? I hope people realize, regardless of what ideology you're afflicted with, we need to start electing good leaders who will do whats right for America instead of whats right for his political campaign donors.

 

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from dddooo:

the world is overwhelmingly against our invasion of Iraq. That would indeed not matter if Iraq was a credible threat, but it never was.

...But Saddam sure as hell was an alarming threat to Israel.
Serious question for you triple d, as someone who cares about both the U.S. and Israel, how can you not have mixed feelings over Saddam's demise?

I sure do.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

...But Saddam sure as hell was an alarming threat to Israel.
Serious question for you triple d, as someone who cares about both the U.S. and Israel, how can you not have mixed feelings over Saddam's demise?

I sure do.

Frankly I just don't have dual loyalties in this matter, I don't believe america should be losing thousands of soldiers and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars for Israel's sake. If Israel was directly attacked, was under a threat of total annihilation and the US decided to interfere that would be a totally different situation but obviously that's not the case.

I don't believe that the invasion had anything to do with Israel and Israeli interests either, even if Israel had benefited from the removal of Saddam Hussein it would have been an unintended consequence which still does not make it right.

But I really don't think Israel benefited from the invasion, Saddam was removed but the Iraqis are more antisemitic now than ever before, they are about to create the Islamic Republic of Iraq, the region is destabilized and half the world [wrongly] believes that Israel uses America to fight its wars. I am also seriously concerned that Israel will end up being made a scapegoat when we finally cut and run.

 

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from dddooo:

Frankly I just don't have dual loyalties in this matter, I don't believe america should be losing thousands of soldiers and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars for Israel's sake. If Israel was directly attacked, was under a threat of total annihilation and the US decided to interfere that would be a totally different situation but obviously that's not the case.

I don't believe that the invasion had anything to do with Israel and Israeli interests either, even if Israel had benefited from the removal of Saddam Hussein it would have been an unintended consequence which still would not make it right.

But I really don't think Israel benefited from the invasion, Saddam was removed but the Iraqis are more antisemitic now than ever before, they are about to create the Islamic Republic of Iraq, the region is destabilized and half the world [wrongly] believes that Israel uses America to fight its wars. I am also seriously concerned that Israel will end up being a scapegoat when we finally cut and run.

OK, very good points.

****Frankly I just don't have dual loyalties in this matter, I don't believe america should be losing thousands of soldiers and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars for Israel's sake.*** -->

I don't either, of course. However, part of me still can't help but be relieved by the fact that Saddam (The Arab Joseph Stalin) went from ruling an entire country to ruling his little prison cell.
Very mixed feelings.

 

[cable]

I think everybody who is sane and rational (that excludes many ET posters) has mixed feelings about Saddam. The guy's a scumbag, but there are many worse that we ignore. It would be nice if we actually had a real reason to invade that wasn't a lie. But politicians always lie to us, why should we be offended now? It's not my kids who are dead. It would be nice if Iraq was miraculously turned into a nice guy country like Canada that would deal with us fairly and not go around cutting off heads, but instead we've basically handed the country over to the same muslim extremists who bombed the WTC, and given them new and improved reasons for them to hate us (so far, for every thousand dead American soldiers there are 50 to 100,000 dead Iraqi CIVILIANS). We've destroyed their infrastructure and their economy. It's like their entire country has been hit by Katrina every day for a couple years now. Except that it was all done on purpose by an invading country under false pretenses.

BUT they're no longer planning on pricing their oil in Euros, so the US greenback is still the world's reserve currency. And we've got our hands on a great new oil supply at cost, and we control who gets access to it (sorry, China!) And Saddam Hussein is going to die for pissing off the Bush family 10 years ago. Yay. Anyone who claims this is a clear win for freedom, America, or Baby Jesus is trying to sell you something, probably a job in the military.

Optionpro mentioned that Bush could lose his job over this. Trust me, they're not worried about losing votes. The Neo-Conservatives DEFINITELY agree with Optionpro and Machiavelli about the end justifying the means, as you can plainly see.

Optionpro also mentioned that

I support his vision for a better world, specially for the middle east, taking out "cancerous" cells, even if major surgery is required.

Unfortunately, with his numerous proven lies, gifting of cushy no-bid (ie. anticompetitive) contracts to his buddies, and generally uncaring attitude towards human life, his job, and the well-being of Americans in general, it doesn't look like he's a "taking out cancerous cells", it looks more like he's a charlatan travelling doctor who is padding his bill before he skips town. I want a second opinion.

 

[Pabst]

Quote from dddooo:

Frankly I just don't have dual loyalties in this matter, I don't believe america should be losing thousands of soldiers and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars for Israel's sake. If Israel was directly attacked, was under a threat of total annihilation and the US decided to interfere that would be a totally different situation but obviously that's not the case.

I don't believe that the invasion had anything to do with Israel and Israeli interests either, even if Israel had benefited from the removal of Saddam Hussein it would have been an unintended consequence which still does not make it right.

But I really don't think Israel benefited from the invasion, Saddam was removed but the Iraqis are more antisemitic now than ever before, they are about to create the Islamic Republic of Iraq, the region is destabilized and half the world [wrongly] believes that Israel uses America to fight its wars. I am also seriously concerned that Israel will end up being made a scapegoat when we finally cut and run.

I believe strongly that Saddam's $25,000 dowry to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers was the last straw with the Bush administration.

I also think you're naive when you keep speaking of European opposition to the war as if Europe is a casual, neutral observer. You don't think France and Germany KNOW Saddam was a threat to Israel? Certainly they did. And most certainly the Jew hating third world African countries that dominate the U.N. knew it. That's why they opposed Saddam's removal. Do you really think these U.N. pricks who don't say SHIT about the zillions who are killed in Africa's numerous civil wars really care about PEACE? Yea right. Any thing that diminishes Israel, any threat is kosher with those guys, and any action that PROTECTS Israel is deemed Zionist/Cowboy military imperialism.

And yes, you'll see Israel made a scapegoat. Just get a Dem in there and Israel will get sold out ASAP. The Christian right is bound to Israel. If you think the black caucus of the Democratic Party is going along with THAT program you're nuts.

 

[Sam123]

100,000 Iraqis dead? Why do you believe that? Can you provide your sources? We destroyed their infrastructure and economy? Are you kidding? As far as infrastructure is concerned, this isn’t 2003. Economy? What economy did they have before?

Where do you get the 100,000 Iraqi dead number? Marxist web sites? Islamist web sites?

The Islamists have murdered more Iraqis than Americans. Yes, yes, yes I know: “but America’s invasion and occupation created the situation.”

My answer is that the Islamists treaded on our territory. So we had to respond and we did. The fact that the Islamists are forced to kill their brothers and sisters in Iraq in a desperate attempt to rally anti-Americanism undermines their idealistic cause to the core because they are sacrificing their fellow Muslims for their cause. They are paying the price for their sick ideology they dared to push on the world, and now they are forced to defend it on their own so-called “holy” lands.

Quote from cable:

I think everybody who is sane and rational (that excludes many ET posters) has mixed feelings about Saddam. The guy's a scumbag, but there are many worse that we ignore. It would be nice if we actually had a real reason to invade that wasn't a lie. But politicians always lie to us, why should we be offended now? It's not my kids who are dead. It would be nice if Iraq was miraculously turned into a nice guy country like Canada that would deal with us fairly and not go around cutting off heads, but instead we've basically handed the country over to the same muslim extremists who bombed the WTC, and given them new and improved reasons for them to hate us (so far, for every thousand dead American soldiers there are 50 to 100,000 dead Iraqi CIVILIANS). We've destroyed their infrastructure and their economy. It's like their entire country has been hit by Katrina every day for a couple years now. Except that it was all done on purpose by an invading country under false pretenses.

 

[cable]

Quote from Sam123:

100,000 Iraqis dead? Why do you believe that? Can you provide your sources? We destroyed their infrastructure and economy? Are you kidding? As far as infrastructure is concerned, this isn’t 2003. Economy? What economy did they have before?

Where do you get the 100,000 Iraqi dead number? Marxist web sites? Islamist web sites?

The Islamists have murdered more Iraqis than Americans. Yes, yes, yes I know: “but America’s invasion and occupation created the situation.”

My answer is that the Islamists treaded on our territory. So we had to respond and we did. The fact that the Islamists are forced to kill their brothers and sisters in Iraq in a desperate attempt to rally anti-Americanism undermines their idealistic cause to the core because they are sacrificing their fellow Muslims for their cause. They are paying the price for their sick ideology they dared to push on the world, and now they are forced to defend it on their own so-called “holy” lands.

Well, firstly, I used that there Google thang, and in less than one minute I found this. But since it's the BBC, you'll probably say that they're lying, because Britain is a third-world communist country, blah blah blah. So take any "estimate" you want, sponsored by the Republican Party or Fox News or whatever, and take their magic number. They're still civilians and they're still dead. And there are way more of them than there should be, and way more dead Iraqi civilians than dead American soldiers, who are basically paid to kill and be killed, unlike 5 year old snotnosed Iraqi children. And then remember that it's very difficult to get accurate numbers in a warzone. The numbers are always understated, due to obvious logistic difficulties.

Why do I believe that number? Because we invaded their country and started shooting people and testing our missiles on them? Or did you miss watching that new reality show called "the news" for the last couple years? Two words for you: Air Strike. Again, Google is your friend.

What economy did they have before? Are you kidding me? What are they teaching you guys in schools now, that everybody except Americans lives in caves like cavemen and sit around eating bugs and grubs all day? Jeesus, why don't you Google for some pictures of something other than Jenna Jameson if you can't bother actually visiting a foreign country once in a while? "OMG, the brown people have houses and everything!!!" (btw, this is the part where you say you lived there on business for oh, 97 years, and it's a real hole and the people begged you to send the glorious US military to invade them, and I believe you of course because nobody on the internet lies about themselves, least of all political fanatics trying to prove a point).

The Islamists have murdered more Iraqis than Americans? Okay, cool. So where do you get your facts? Nobody on this site seems to show any proof of anything. And you're blaming "Islamists", that's pretty vague. If the "Islamists", by which I'm guessing you mean that small 1-2% of muslims who is fundamentally psycho, actually "treaded on our territory", why did we invade one of the most secular countries in the middle east? Saddam had actually a fairly westernized secular system going there before we kicked him out and allowed the real religious extremists to take over.

Nobody has to "rally anti-Americanism" in Iraq. If the Iraq military kicked YOUR door down, killed your dad for no reason, looted your house, blew up the hospitals and churches down the street, and kidnapped your older brother (an apolitical carpenter) and sent him off to a prison camp for "re-education" through extreme voltage, wouldn't YOU have a bit of anti-Iraqi sentiment? Now try to step outside of the party line and imagine how these guys must feel. Oh, wait, I forgot, those bullets are actually little Lead Liberators flying home to set them free. My mistake. God Bless The New America.

The far right wing in America, for some reason, refuses to "follow the money." Until you guys start thinking about which groups benefit from all this shite that's happened on and since 9-11, you'll remain at the cookie-cutter level of political thought.

 

[traderob]

Quote from optionpro007:

I knew you were going to reply in this manner to the point that I was going to add the following to my message:

Hey optionpro, who the fuck are you to decide what consititutes a noble goal ?

and my reply was going to be....

dddooo, who the fuck are you to decide which one isn't ??

lol.

Yep, -Machiavelli still unsurpassed as a political philosopher.

 

[traderob]

Quote from Sam123:

100,000 Iraqis dead? Why do you believe that? .

What do you expect them to believe Sam. Remember the press estimating 50,000 dead in new orleans and babies been raped and slit open. Much harder to disprove in a foreign country so the crazies have a field day.