Chat Rooms - Trading oriented...

[Hitman]

***I still have a problem with automatical labeling of anyone who wouldn't show his trading records as liar or incapable trader... ***

Once Brandon audits his trading record, those who don't will lose their credibility instantly. My problem is at this moment I am not aware of any vendor with an audited trading record, something nobody should be able to get away with.

***For instance, I said that I don't think I need to include in my averages days when I do not trade at all for non-trading reasons (as opposed to trading ones, i.e., I couldn't find a trade or couldn't make myself pull a trigger - such days should be included). ***

I don't include games I miss either, I missed exactly two games this year, my definition of AVERAGE is your total P&L divided by the number of days you made a trade on.

If you still consider yourself a trader, throw the excuses out of the window.

***Do you really think it's a absolute goal of everyone who is trading? What's wrong with just making a living?***

There is something very wrong about just making a living. Every trader gets into losing streaks, bad months, bad years, to make this profession worthwhile you can not be happy with anything under six figures (and by that definition I am not happy with my own performance and I am looking for some serious improvement in my game in 2002).

You can make 50-60K a year very easily (I know because I did it at the age of 19) in far less stressful professions. It doesn't matter how much you love the game, in the end there is bills to pay and one bad streak can wipe you out. You have to be on high alert at all times and you absolutely must seek the higher bracket of income if you want to make this game worthwhile.

Make a poll on this board, how many people will be happy with making 70K a year trading? (Assuming they are already profitable)

***I have easy answer: I don't know. And you don't know, too.***

Wrong answer, you make the calls everyday and deep in your heart you know the truth, you don't want to face it, doesn't mean you don't know the answer.

***In 18 years reading these posts of yours you are going to smile about this infinite confidence, total lack of doubts and huge desire to win against the world you show now.***

Garbage comment, we are traders, age doesn't matter, intensity, aggression, hunger, ferocity, viciousness matters.

***IF (I hope it will never happen) you ever fail as a trader, the reason for this is going to be your ego. If you stay in the game for a long time, the reason for this is going to be your successful overcoming of your ego.***

Everyone who ever traded with me know that I am as humble as they come, and my style is among the most conservative style there is. Defense has always been my forte and my offense has always been lacking. Ego is not a problem, by the time Monday's opening bell rings I will be calm and in control. Survival, that is the word on my mind every single time I play the game.

And if I stay in the game for a long time it will be pure skill, no commission income nor monthly fees will keep me in the game. If I can't play the game the way it is meant to be played a few years from now I will automatically concede defeat and WILL NOT even try to extend my shelf-life by pretending I am someone that I am not.

Limbo:

There are a lot of scams and fraud in this business, IF I ever establish myself in this industry I will do my part to clean it up.

Thank you for betting against me, that makes me want to prove myself even more, an extra degree of motivation is always helpful.

We will see whether you get the satisfication of watching me flipping burgers, or me getting the satisfication of proving you wrong.

 

[dufferdon]

1. I don't recall agreeing with you on this point. If the chatroom is making trading calls, even just as an educational service, it seems like little additional effort for the someone in the chatroom to click the buy or sell button on the chatroom account after the call is made. A reputable chatroom will call exits too (I believe yours does) so there should be no additional burden in tracking the position and actually exiting on the call.

I don't think that posting results up to the time the chatroom is started is an adequate substitute because markets evolve as does trading them. We have already had one vendor accused of teaching obsolete techniques here by other vendors.

2. I have a problem with that too and I have never accused anyone specifically of being a liar or a cheat, although I have raised the possibility of there being liars, cheats and incompetents in the industry. Enough people agree with me, including some who are in the industry and who have been a lot more specific than I, to make it a real concern.

I am sorry, but the innocent until proven guilty argument doesn't wash with me because the customer has no way of investigating innocence or guilt before being asked to part with substantial amounts of cash. Therefore, it behooves the honest and competent to prove that they are, to avoid being tarred with the same brush as those who are not.

 

[liltrdr]

There are some vendors who disclose their full records. Check out www.sellnow.net/freesite. This guy trades the big S&P contract (just 1) and does very well with it. I seriously think he could rival Marty Shwartz if he just upped his size. Check it out. He gives a daily, monthly and yearly breakdown of his P&L. Great ideas on trading the S&P too.

 

[qwiktrade]

Originally posted by Hitman
The past mean nothing, what is important is present (2001) and beyond (2002). What is important is not what you did last year but what you did this year and next year and beyond. If my strategy no longer works, until I find a new one that does work, I am no better than a newbie fresh off the boat.

actually, i happen to hold the view that our past experience can be a valuable asset if we learn the proper lessons from it.. and frankly, although my income was much higher my first year, i consider this year more successful.. when i started i was using a strategy that was very easy to implement from a psychological standpoint.. this year was a year of struggle and learning.. but the understanding (both of myself and the markets) that i have as a result of this year will serve as a foundation for my success in the years to come.. George Bernard Shaw once said, "You dont hold your own in the world by standing on guard, but by attacking and getting well hammered yourself." but i think the subject was best addressed by the Roman philosopher Seneca the younger almost 2000 years ago when he said, "We become wiser by adversity; prosperity experienced too soon destroys our appreciation of what is right."

Originally posted by Hitman
When you are getting blown out of the water every day, my dog can be an inspiration because he is not losing as much money as you are. I have a guy on my team who was on a losing streak, and I talk to him everyday, show him what I did during the day, make some comments on what he did, etc . . . You know what, when he snaps his losing streak (and he did on Friday) and hopefully, develops into a profitable trader, I won't take ANY credit for it.

i didnt say that Vad inspired me.. in fact, if you are looking for warm fuzzies he definitly isnt the person you want to speak to.. what Vad did was explain how to think in probabilities rather than "this trade went against me, i must have done something wrong".. and we talked about overtrading and the reasons behind it.. i wasnt losing money because i was unable to understand the setups.. i was losing because i didnt understand how to think like a trader.. by the way.. i have a thread on Self-Talk here on elite.. you should modify the "Discipline" self-talk to the guy on your teams situation and give it to him.. it will help him stay in the proper frame of mind..

Originally posted by Hitman
The only person that can save you in a war, is yourself. If you were losing money, then everything you did is wrong. If you were losing money every day, then the only way to go is up because you already bottomed out.

my grandfather was part of a unit that was cut off behind enemy lines in Korea.. one of the officers was wounded badly in a gunfight and my grandfather carried that man on his back for two weeks until they were able to get to safety.. tell that officer that "the only one who can save you in a war is yourself".. its nonsense.. and you dont have to do everything wrong to lose money.. in fact, you can do 90% right and only screw up 10% and still be unable to make a strategy work for you..

Originally posted by Hitman
Last time I checked he claimed to average $200-$300 a day from his own trading. That stacks me up comfortably well against him from a trader vs. trader basis.

actually, his average before he began running a room was 500 if i remember right.. something like 41% better than your results this year..

Originally posted by Hitman
And to counter his chat room program I am organizing a team of my own traders..

=) his chatroom was not launched against you.. lol

Originally posted by Hitman
I have no problem with chat room vendors if they audit their record, Brandon is about to do it and he will revolutionize this particular industry.. ..In my eyes you are either on my side or you are not, I talk to a lot of people about trading and once Brandon is legit I will refer to him as the real deal, and anyone who doesn't audit their record by then will be considered a scam in my book.

i have no problem with chat room vendors if they dont audit their record.. and by their success over the years, i would say that they are doing just fine without it.. i dont doubt that you talk to alot of people.. i do doubt that you would have any substantial influence though.. no offense..

Originally posted by Hitman
While I am no "earth shaker" in this industry, I have a lot of readers for my trading journals, and I don't think anyone want to bet against me on my quest to fully develop my skills and go prime time. And if I do get there, I know that is a big IF, being a straight shooter will not cost me anything because most people prefer to deal with people with integrity.

here is a free tip.. i normally dont give them out for free but seeing as how its christmas and all.. people do business with people they (1) know, (2) like, and (3) trust.. alot of people know you because of your journal.. and you might convince people that you are honest because you let them see your p&l.. but you come off like a blow-hard.. and i mean that in the most sincere, constructive way.. =)

Originally posted by Hitman
And if I do survive, my reputation will eventually cost you customers if I don't think you have integrity, and you heard it here first. I am dead serious and I will draw the line in the sand, those that pass my integrity test will greatly benefit from my praises and those that do not will eventually feel the heat.

Of course I may blow up, selling hot dogs on Wall Street as a vendor lol, and never to be heard again, would you really want to take the chance?

ill let you in on a little secret.. no doubt there are trading vendors that tweak Tony Oz.. and they are still in business.. there are definitly vendors that piss off Don Bright, and they are still in business.. and im there are vendors that piss off the Market Wizards, but yet they survive year after year.. so somehow i am doubting that all the vendors are now shaking in their boots lest they get on the wrong side of your line in the sand..

look.. why not calm down a little.. you have alot of potential, dont become the "barney fife" of the trading world.. why not look for the good in others and say something nice.. why not find a post that says something you believe deeply (that someone else wrote) and give it a hearty second.. why not show just a little tolerance and respect for others who do not share your views.. another free tip, people will never care how much you know until they know you care..

btw, for future reference.. i like my hot dogs with mayo, ketchup, mustard and onions.. no relish thanks.. =) just teasing..

-qwik

 

[Pejman Hamidi]

Don't any of you have any research or reading to do? Maybe share some of your findings with us?

But please, ENOUGH OF THIS.

Spread love all around. Wish for all of your neighbors to be prosperous. Don't challenge them for the evil of ambition can often outweigh the benefits of ambition. Your skills are a gift from the Divine. Abuse them for the displeasure and envy of others, and you may lose them forever.

Love you all.

 

[Threei]

sorry, can't agree with you on easiness of trading and commenting at the same time. I tried - no can do. Maybe it's just me... but look: you are putting on a trade, let's even suppose trade developes slow enough for you to not just post your entry but also briefly describe setup, stop placement, some other discretionary details. At this moment one of members asks your opinion about another trade/stock/situation. You need to pull the chart, level 2, look at it, make up your mind and comment, and often not in one word responce - since you are running educational service you need to explain why you think what you say. And all this time you are not watching your trade. I can't trade like this. I have to adjust my trading style to this kind of environment, and my adjustment is less active trading and focusing on very fast or really slow trades. It inevitably impacts financial outcome.
In order to trade as usual and run the room one would have to stop all the explanations, no questions allowed. Leader posts his trades expecting members to emulate him - exactly the kind of room we don't want to do.

On second point... well, we can agree to disagree, can't we? I think I know where you are coming from with this, I do know people in this business that couldn't trade profitably if their life depended on it, and yes, they are cheats in my book, too. I just don't feel like labeling everyone who doesn't rush to prove otherwise.

 

[mrbud]

Ok..... everybody ready ?

Sing......Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.

 

[dottom]

My problem is at this moment I am not aware of any vendor with an audited trading record, something nobody should be able to get away with.

If you recall from a previous post on automated trading systems, I mentioned several system vendors who offer trading statements from actual clients. These include CTA's trading fully disclosed (to the client) systems as well as proprietary (e.g. Ehlers). These are brokerage statements from actual trades made by actual customers who are actually paying for the system to be traded by a managed broker.

 

[Hitman]

***you should modify the "Discipline" self-talk to the guy on your teams situation and give it to him.. it will help him stay in the proper frame of mind.. ***

Sorry man, I don't think discipline can be taught. Talking to yourself may work for you but sure as hell won't help everyone else.

***tell that officer that "the only one who can save you in a war is yourself".. its nonsense.. and you dont have to do everything wrong to lose money.. ***

Unlike that officer, as a trader you have to stick your head out 5-50 times a day, 250 days a year, and many many years down the road. Sure sometimes when I am ice cold I ride other people's coat tail too. Doesn't mean I have anyone else to rely on over the long run.

***in fact, you can do 90% right and only screw up 10% and still be unable to make a strategy work for you.. ***

A very good way of saying absolutely nothing.

***actually, his average before he began running a room was 500 if i remember right.. something like 41% better than your results this year.. ***

Actually, those numbers came from 2000, and everyone and their mother agree that 2000 was a much much much much much much much much much better year than 2001. I didn't play in 2000 (I started at Worldco around the same time he started his room), I played in 2001. I don't care if he made $5000 a day in 2000.

**=) his chatroom was not launched against you.. lol ***

Your comment he made more money than me this year included his chat room income.

***i do doubt that you would have any substantial influence though.. no offense.. ***

Of course not, not yet anyway, see next comment . . .

***so somehow i am doubting that all the vendors are now shaking in their boots lest they get on the wrong side of your line in the sand.. ***

That's because A) None of the big name vendors ever audited their account record, and it is such a stupid loop hole in this particular industry B) Nobody, with the exception of Don Bright (marketing or not, still gotta give him major props for at least taking the right side of the trade), is doing any comparison tests.

Nobody said you can put some serious hurt to some of those scams overnight. What I must do within the next 12 months:

A) Find a fine example of a vendor that is legit in every way, which hopefully Brandon will provide. Praise it, bless it, use it as a standard everyone else is judged against.

B) Slowly but surely start chipping into potential customer base of those that are not auditing their records, starting out by posting vendor reviews/impressions, singing praises for reputable vendors that do audit their records, bashing those that do not with a variety of usernames on various message boards, like what Turok is doing.

C) Aggressive recruiting retail newbies into prop/prof firms. Let's face it, anyone within the vicinity of New York area, trading from home, subscribing to a chatroom, is a potential customer. He has the 25K and he can use less than half of that to get a highly competitive deal at Worldco, with any luck by then I will have a much stronger track record and a few quality players on my team to provide a solid training program. So no, this is not just a mud throwing contest, there is real business at stake here.

D) A full blown recruiting campaign to fully illustrate the advantage of a prop firm for someone just starting out (which is the premium target of chat rooms, and that is our interest as well). Personally, I see ZERO reason to trade a 25K account while subscribing to a chat room that is probably a scam to begin with if there is a prop/prof firm within the vicinity.

E) To be honest with you, with this kind of market climate and that 25K requirement (in many ways I feel Echo moved at a much quicker pace after the rule change, thankfully the window of opportunity is not fully closed, yet) most of the chat rooms will die a slow death any way. However, if I can do a little bit of my part to speed up the progress, grab a few quality talents in the progress, consider it mission accomplished. (Which is exactly what Don is trying to do with his "competitive review" project, although he pulled a gorgeous trojan horse approach).

Dottom:

I am referring to chat room vendors. Anyone who is auditing their record gets major props from me, but one day this should be an industry requirement with no ifs and buts about it.

 

[candletrader]

Originally posted by Threei
Disciplined Trader is one of rare books that set a trader on the right path, totally agree, but in my opinion Trading in the Zone, latest book by the same author beats first one hands down. Ideal way is probably to read both but if I had to chose, my choice would be Trading in the Zone.

Did you like it less? Or it just came around at the times when you needed this kind of books less due to advance in self control and self understanding?

Best regards,

Vadym

Hi Vadym,

I am unable to comment on Trading in the Zone. I assume that you are referring to the book by Mark Douglas, since Ari Kiev has a book by the same title. The Disciplined Trader is what got me through my psycholgical barriers. Given that I regard myself to be as close to the zone as possible (although I am constantly improving), I don't think Trading in the Zone could do much for me at this stage in my trading career. Indeed, I confess that I have not read Trading in the Zone (my personal experience in life is that sequels are of minimal value). However, therein lies another weakness... I must become more open to new ideas. So I will not close my mind to Trading in the Zone... I will acquire it and read it and try to identify more of my weaknesses, in order to take me to the next level of profitability. I am currently stuck in the 6 figures profit range... I must work on my psychology to take me to a consistent 7 figure level... I hope to achieve this within 3 years.

Keep at the good work at www.realitytrader.com

Best regards,
Candle