challenging trading environment

here's what i found regarding the delay of data for open book:


NYSE OpenBook™ provides a real-time view of the Exchange's limit-order book for all NYSE-traded securities. NYSE OpenBook lets traders see aggregate limit-order volume at every bid and offer price, thus responding to customer demand for more depth-of-market data and raising the NYSE market to an even greater level of transparency.


Q: Can the NYSE’s best bid and offer ever be inferior to the “top of book” in OpenBook?

A: Because OpenBook is updated every ten seconds and the best bid and offer can be updated more frequently, there may be instances where the NYSE’s best bid and offer may appear inferior to the best bid or offer in OpenBook.

So basically the data is real time but "refreshed" every ten seconds, so therefore it can be very accurate at times and never older than ten seconds. imho this is different/better than a straight ten second delay and supports NYSEat21's earlier claims in regards to his positive experiences.
 
Don's private question was so good that I would like to explain it in public.

******As I said in the post, I am just looking for clarification (and not trying to get into a "fight" or anything on the board).

I spoke to one of your people, and would like to see if the information is correct, and if not...please let me know. We all know that we are competitors (sort of), but have slightly different approaches.******

First of all, I have 100% respect for Don Bright. It is just unfortunate that we are competitors. Showing appreciation for your competitor is a fatal mistake. This is precisely why I look for every opportunity to attack him, Bright, or any other competitor firm for that matter.

That said, say heaven forbid, Worldco goes out of business, I will be very comfortable to join any firm including Don's, and if that happens I would be very comfortable to do whatever I can to push Bright. It is all business, nothing personal. We are directly in competition with each other, that is a fact.

******I was told that with no money up, they paid around 1.6 cents per share to trade, and got around 70% or so of the profits. If that is true, then the math may look like this.

Average trader = 1 Mil shares/month.
.8 additional costs = $8,000 additional fees per month. Reducing, for example profits from $10,000 to $2,000 (leaving the trader with $1500 or so).

The firm actually makes the additional $8,000 in fees plus $1500, which means that the trader (in 3 months) has paid the whole $25,000 in extra fees to the firm.******

Bad math Don, I, after a year of trading, average one million shares a month. There is no way in the world a brand new trader coming into our firm with zero experience / capital can get anywhere near that.

By the time any one of our traders get even close to 1 million shares a month, they WILL have one penny a share, probably less, they will have 95% payout, probably more.

The additional commissions you pay at first is to actually encourage people to come up with some capital. I just started a guy who put up 2-3K and he gets 1.2 cent per share right off the bat. If we don't hand out slightly higher rates no one will put up any money, and we like people to absorb a little bit of our risk just like Bright does (in that case all of the risk), and we think people work harder when they have something on the line.

******I am not trying to get nasty here, and am pretty sure that this trader must be mis-informed....but that same trader has told several people the same thing.

I would just be curious about the idea of paying double in commissions...(we are at .7-.8 in the NYC area).******

.7-.8 is for people who average how many shares? Our highest volume traders gets half a penny per share. I WOULD WELCOME ANY TRADER FROM BRIGHT (BRING YOUR FRIENDS WHILE YOU ARE AT IT, BRING YOUR TRADING RECORD TOO) TO COME OVER TO OUR NEW YORK OFFICE, IF WALTER CAN NOT GIVE YOU A BETTER RATE I WILL BUY YOU LUNCH. As a prep firm instead of a prof firm we are not allowed to give 100% payout's, but we will give you 99.99%, big difference? Yeah, in commission rates.

******If you would like, a personal note of response would be ok...and like I said...I MUST be wrong about this....and perhaps you will win many new people by letting us know the facts.******

Exactly, that's why I felt I should make this public.

******As I said on the board, I am sorry that I didn't get a chance to meet you at the Expo...I stopped by Echo (next door to you guys) a few times, but was told that you weren't there.******

I was sick over the weekend. I did go there on Tuesday and found it a total waste of time. I actually went to your booth around 2:45 or so on Tuesday to say hi but you weren't there.

As I said, I respect you, but I am not the type of person to sit on a high horse. I want good traders out of Bright the same way you want good traders out of Worldco. Sure Worldco take on people with no capital but we love people who put up 25K as much as you do, I mean what hell I will make sure that we give them a penny a share because after all it is zero risk investment.

This has nothing to do with burning bridges. If I work for Bright as a team leader, you would not want me to kiss up to Walter from Worldco. It is principle. I give loyalty, commitment, dedication to the firm I work for and I attack my competitors viciously.

So it will be an never ending battle. I may not have what it takes to take you head on right now, but in a few years that may change. You have experience and skill that totally outclass me it is not even funny. I on the other hand, have youth and time.

Let's see if I can catch up :-)
 
hitman ' I give loyalty, commitment, dedication to the firm I work for and I attack my competitors viciously.'

that's the problem hitman. not the first part but the last part says it too well. and that's why sometimes I don't like to read your comments. maybe I am not the only one. attacking the competition is usually a very bad biz practice.

also, a question, I am not attacking you here, just asking question, I know you like questions. What is worldco's motivation. it's a business and if I read you well you are saying they don't want either commissions or serious cut on profits. I just can't believe that. this is not a non profit organization, so at least I think bright is more straightforward.

I don't work for a pro firm. I find as annoying sometimes bright's anti private trader attitude. for either of your company to get me would take quite some explaining and incitive. and anyway be remote so I really ask out of curiosity while constantly see you fight to get traders.

tntneo
 
When did I say we don't want commissions?

But we know that whipping the guys to trade bigger size than they are capable of is not the solution. You can't make the guy take 20 shots a day if he only sees 5 set-ups.

We give our traders time, commission is our bread and butter, but you can't take blood out of a stone, you need to let them play.

As for attacking the competitor. This is not like coke and pepsi here. We are trying to take the talent out of the other firm while keeping our own. I like Walter's attitude toward competitors, if you want to cut their throat at least be honest about it.

As for the retail traders, or even traders working for other prop firms for that matter, if you are making say 250K a year, and everything is going your way, and in 2002 you already made say 30-50K, what make you think we can get them even if we offer say a company paid condo near our office?

The truth is if you are doing well, you won't need to change a thing. It is not like we are begging and pleading everyone to join our firm here. We tell you exactly what we have to offer (bullets, very little of your own capital tied up, high quality talents to work with although right now I can't say that with a straight face if you are playing on my team), and whether you are convinced or not, we honestly don't care. It is a partnership after all and if you are not into it, nothing will convince you. Who cares, there ARE a lot of fishs in the sea.
 
I still maintain that we are competitors "sort of" and we do have different philosphies about our industry. I will never go to another firm and try to steal their traders with nickels and dimes and nonsense. I prefer to grow the industry by bringing in good people who will learn how to become traders....and, yes, our average trader do well over 1 million shares per month (heck our brand new people do .5 million just on opening orders after a month or so)....

All of our NYC traders start out at .75 (less than half of what you're charging) Now you tell me that you are actually "baiting and switching" "trying to get them to put up money" you said. And what the heck is a "prep firm.?"
Never heard of it..??

And don't forget, we didn't get where we are by not being competitive, we just choose to offer lower rates (lowering costs year after year), but not in the way of personal attacks or vile and vulgar language (I am just repeating what other's have said).

We have been "pirated" by several (usually desperate) firms, and have matched or beaten virtually every "viable" firm out there...and we let the other's "die a slow death" ....we are continuing to grow at 40% per year...and we still are growing by "attraction" and "education" rather than "street tactics." I do appreciate your competitive nature, but it seems in 180 degree conflict with your firm's way of advertising for the "elite" from the colleges...when it has been said on the board is that you need is to have a "breathing body with no GPA" --- you are fierce, and it may work in NYC, but as for the rest of the World, I still prefer to offer a good service at fair prices, and stay with the same Clearing Firm for another 25 years or so.

And, even in your own case, why give away 5% of your money??

Again, I respect your dedication and strong will.....and if you decide to come over to Bright when all is said and done, you would be welcome as a trader....but I would not ask you to do the recruiting...(you're too scary!)...

Good Luck....and I respect your willingness to respond, but I still didn't find out if anybody is paying those outrageous fees in lieu of putting up a few bucks.....(even at half the volume, WorldCO is making much more money off of their new traders....because the $25,000 is still the traders money when they are with us...and they aren't paying us an extra (even only $1000 per week in excess fees)...Hell, someone could borrow the $25K, keep all their profits, and pay half as much in fees....I thought I was wrong, but it appears that may I not be...

So, as always, traders should look past the superficial when they start their trading business....imagine paying $100K or more just to not borrow $25K. Check all the details, check the balance sheets of the firms, do the math, and make a sound decision.

2 business models, 2 approaches to growth....let us both do well, and hopefully we can get together in NYC (or when you decide to trade at Bright)...

Just havin' some fun on a Sunday in the office, preparing for another 40 new traders coming to class tomorrow. ...good luck!!
 
Like I said I was not attacking anyone nor showing disrespect. I think the last two posts are more honest than many others. And that is fair enough.

regarding attracting me, I was merely jocking. Of course I am not interested. That is not to say I don't understand traders joining pro firm. Of course I understand. heck ! they are more likely to succeed that following stupid web sites and ads in magazines.

tntneo
 
LOL now....this sounds like the Tech firms who spent millions of the investors money in Las Vegas at expo's, threw "lavish parties" (your quote), or like Enron before the facts were out....Come on, even you can see through the silliness of this facade...

Our traders can go to Florida, Canada, Calif, and several other states, write off their trips...and still trade everyday..and get the heck out of the City when they want....:cool:
 
Originally posted by tntneo
Like I said I was not attacking anyone nor showing disrespect. I think the last two posts are more honest than many others. And that is fair enough.

regarding attracting me, I was merely jocking. Of course I am not interested. That is not to say I don't understand traders joining pro firm. Of course I understand. heck ! they are more likely to succeed that following stupid web sites and ads in magazines.

tntneo
More...

Good comments TNT...traders are usually smart enough to make decisions based on facts rather than intimidation and hype. (or even elite trader ads....oops, that would be us....:-) Better ads here than Condo's in NY.....(I'm still smiling Hitman....lighten up)....All in good fun!!
 
Correct me if I'm wrong Don but I heard your NY firm only has maybe 3-5 traders in NY. So Hitman you may be barking up the wrong tree.
Besides the air quality in your neck of the woods is at best very questionable. I believe many reports concerning Air Quality (asbestos) near the trade center may have some long term effects on the respiratory system but research continues in this area and I sure don't want to be the lab animal for this type of documentation.
Long term breathing is essential for a traders success.
 
***I will never go to another firm and try to steal their traders with nickels and dimes and nonsense.***

Say that to me with a straight face, you tried to recruit me because you thought you could offer me a better rate after reading my journals. When I gave you my numbers you backed away and even came up with some garbage like "o I gotta talk to other wLDC traders I recruited to see if what you told me is true".

***I prefer to grow the industry by bringing in good people who will learn how to become traders....***

You mean people with 25K to blow? There are many good people out there who can not become traders because they don't have the 25K + 6 months living expenses which is the true entry price of this business. At Worldco, they get a legit shot. We allow college grads to jump directly into their profession of choice, instead spending a few years to come up with the up front money.

***and, yes, our average trader do well over 1 million shares per month (heck our brand new people do .5 million just on opening orders after a month or so).... ***

Total garbage, 90% of the volume/profit is generated by 10% of the traders, just like 90% of the wealth on this planet is controled by maybe 10% of the population. To generate 0.5 million shares a month requires 10K each way every day, with 500 shares that is 20 trades. I guess because your brand new traders bringing in your own capital you let them do whatever they want, but no newbie should be trading more than 100-200 shares first month, and no newbie should be doing something like half a million shares second month.

***We have been "pirated" by several firms, and have matched or beaten virtually every "viable" firm....we are continuing to grow at 40% per year... and we still are growing by "attraction" and "education" rather than "street tactics." ***

Every firm says that, come up with some new lines. It is getting old. I don't see people running out of their doors to pirate us, because not every start-up can eat their traders losses and keep them in the game.

***I do appreciate your competitive nature, but it seems in 180 degree conflict with your firm's way of advertising for the "elite" from the colleges...when it has been said on the board is that you need is to have a "breathing body with no GPA" --- ***

It is the same principle. While you can come up here with no capital of course we prefer you to have something to absorb the initial damage. While you can come here without a degree, of course we prefer that you came out of MIT. It is different when I am answering questions from this board, the average reader of this board has far more interest in the stock market than say the typical reader of New York Times, I know with or without a degree I can get people with more passion here, and for me passion is everything.

***you are fierce, and it may work in NYC, but as for the rest of the World, I still prefer to offer a good service at fair prices, and stay with the same Clearing Firm for another 25 years or so.***

We self-clear, and our prices are just as good, if not better.

***And, even in your own case, why give away 5% of your money??***

Because I can still be trading if I blow my cap account? Because in a few months or so I will probably get something like 98% payout? Because Don Bright himself could not beat my rates at Worldco?

***Again, I respect your dedication and strong will.....and if you decide to come over to Bright when all is said and done, you would be welcome as a trader....but I would not ask you to do the recruiting...(you're too scary!)... ***

Quite frankly, Echo would be my first choice. It will take some dramatic turn of events for me to leave Worldco now that I inked a seven year contract.

***Good Luck....and I respect your willingness to respond, but I still didn't find out if anybody is paying those outrageous fees in lieu of putting up a few bucks.....(even at half the volume, WorldCO is making much more money off of their new traders....because the $25,000 is still the traders money when they are with us...and they aren't paying us an extra (even only $1000 per week in excess fees)...Hell, someone could borrow the $25K, keep all their profits, and pay half as much in fees....I thought I was wrong, but it appears that may I not be...***

Wrong again, Worldco can not make a penny off its new traders, because new traders lose money and you see we back them unlike Bright which kicks them out when they lose all of their cash. Bright make money from its new traders from day one because you have 25K to absorb the damage, and a desk fee if they don't trade volume, we don't do that. We don't make a dime from the newbies until a few months into the game, and that is IF they show progress. The guy could be down 8K after 2 months and we STILL won't give up on them.

***So, as always, traders should look past the superficial when they start their trading business....imagine paying $100K or more just to not borrow $25K. Check all the details, check the balance sheets of the firms, do the math, and make a sound decision.***

Do your research folks, once you lose the initial 25K you are out of the game, hell once you lose half of it the ability for you to turn things around is severely hampered. Keep in mind you probably won't get paid until on average 6 months into the game, so factor in the living expenses.

Paying 100K or more? I am sorry, people at Worldco pay less at equivalent volume versus Bright guys. First 3 months, sure, you pay more commissions, but you don't pay stupid desk fees and that evens things out given that you won't be trading that many shares. By the end of 3 month your commission is probably already reduced significantly and eventually your commission will be much lower than what Bright can come up with. We offer half a penny a share for our best traders. We offer less than half a penny a share for THE most hardcore scalpers.

***2 business models, 2 approaches to growth....let us both do well, and hopefully we can get together in NYC (or when you decide to trade at Bright)... ***

There is THE business model, but you need to absorb initial damages. No pain, no gain.
 
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