Cashless economy?

[VicBee]

Why would an average European care about "dark money"? Is it his or her primary concern when going shopping?

I think that's because European believe that everyone who makes money should pay taxes, in particular those highest on the income scale? European don't care if the money comes from drugs or prostitution or corporate; they care that everyone is taxed appropriately.

 

[cesfx]

Based upon the responses that I've seen in this thread and many others on this site over the years, it seems like the argument really isn't "cash or cashless" because we never hear anyone who is in favor of cash say, "I just love carrying heavy bags of coins and stacks of bills around". Instead, their main bias towards cash always points towards a desire for privacy as it relates to government oversight, intervention and taxation.

Privacy is one of the primary reasons that cryptocurrencies were created and continue to be developed and refined on a daily basis. Some are more private than others for sure.

Whether its paper cash, metal coins, paper checks, electronic bank payments, cryptocurrencies, etc., they all are really the same thing, which are tokens representing the value of a certain amount of an agreed-upon currency, which for the sake of argument, is most often the U.S. Dollar.

All of the tokens mentioned above have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the writing on the wall is clear moving forward. Just like we created pure digital versions of photos, news, videos, and music, there's no doubt that we are moving towards the pure digitization of money.

So moving forward, the question won't be cash vs. cashless because cash is clearly on the way out with each passing day. The question will be "which digital token or payment method best represents my preferences"? For some whose preferences are speed and underlying price stability while still using the traditional banking system, that might be a service like existing Credit/Debit card payments, Venmo, Paypal, Zelle, Cash App, or even a stablecoin like USDC (once they are regulated, which they will be soon).

For those that want to keep the banking system out of it for the most part, their choice may be a fast peer-to-peer transfer using a cryptocurrency such Bitcoin (over the lighting network), Litecoin, ETH, SOL, etc.

For those that are privacy-focused, their choice will be something like Monero, Zcash, etc.

And it goes without saying that all the new token transfers will take place via Phones, Tablets, computers, in-person merchant terminals, etc.

I like crypto, and owned some since early 2017. But I like the concept, the privacy, the lightweight, the speed... and the opportunity to make some money.

But I do wonder how can they ever replace ordinary fiat with the volatility we have seen since they were all created.


I don't think bank should ever be allowed not to print and mint anymore.

Also cashless is very discriminatory.

How can a person with a bad credit score get by?

In London some shops are cashless already... Then they like to show off how ethical and green they are, but they will refuse a bottle of water sale to a paying homeless or a "no credit worthy" person.

https://www.ft.com/partnercontent/comarch/covid-19-the-viral-spread-of-cashless-society.html


I own a shop and will never go cashless, although I take any sort of payment, even crypto if a customer wants to pay with it.

I will happily close it down when society will force me into cashless.

 

[Baron]

But I do wonder how can they ever replace ordinary fiat

Currently, the business world speaks in fiat so crypto isn't really about replacing fiat as a currency. Much of crypto, as well as other traditional new apps and services, are really about addressing the inefficiencies of the traditional banking system.

 

[cesfx]

I think that's because European believe that everyone who makes money should pay taxes, in particular those highest on the income scale? European don't care if the money comes from drugs or prostitution or corporate; they care that everyone is taxed appropriately.

European will never be united on the way of thinking. Different cultures and custom, that go a long way back.

Tax cheating is a common practice in Europe.
Most Italian restaurants wouldn't even exist without tax evasion, as the Italian government takes more than 60% (I think it's actually 67%) when you add all taxes and fees. So, most of them have "dark cash" flow.

Some europeans have been hiding cash in Switzerland and setting up companies in Luxembourg and UK to hide cash and pay less % for years.

Then it's probably different in Scandinavia. Each country has its own reality, corruption and ethic.

 

[zghorner]

Based upon the responses that I've seen in this thread and many others on this site over the years, it seems like the argument really isn't "cash or cashless" because we never hear anyone who is in favor of cash say, "I just love carrying heavy bags of coins and stacks of bills around". Instead, their main bias towards cash always points towards a desire for privacy as it relates to government oversight, intervention and taxation.

Privacy is one of the primary reasons that cryptocurrencies were created and continue to be developed and refined on a daily basis. Some are more private than others for sure.

Whether its paper cash, metal coins, paper checks, electronic bank payments, cryptocurrencies, etc., they all are really the same thing, which are tokens representing the value of a certain amount of an agreed-upon currency, which for the sake of argument, is most often the U.S. Dollar.

All of the tokens mentioned above have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the writing on the wall is clear moving forward. Just like we created pure digital versions of photos, news, videos, and music, there's no doubt that we are moving towards the pure digitization of money.

So moving forward, the question won't be cash vs. cashless because cash is clearly on the way out with each passing day. The question will be "which digital token or payment method best represents my preferences"? For some whose preferences are speed and underlying price stability while still using the traditional banking system, that might be a service like existing Credit/Debit card payments, Venmo, Paypal, Zelle, Cash App, or even a stablecoin like USDC (once they are regulated, which they will be soon).

For those that want to keep the banking system out of it for the most part, their choice may be a fast peer-to-peer transfer using a cryptocurrency such Bitcoin (over the lighting network), Litecoin, ETH, SOL, etc.

For those that are privacy-focused, their choice will be something like Monero, Zcash, etc.

And it goes without saying that all the new token transfers will take place via Phones, Tablets, computers, in-person merchant terminals, etc.

bingo. Privacy is extremely important to me...but not so much for others. I dislike big government...others like it. I do not trust the government to always have my best intentions at heart...others do, I guess. Very difficult to find common ground with opponents on these issues.

I see MMT as a path for the government to go cashless. Pretty interesting topic if anyone hasn't looked into it. Basically government will have absolute control over currency...issue/create as much currency as they wish...and control inflation via taxes.

 

[gkishot]

I think that's because European believe that everyone who makes money should pay taxes, in particular those highest on the income scale? European don't care if the money comes from drugs or prostitution or corporate; they care that everyone is taxed appropriately.

Does everybody have a bank account in Europe? Are there street beggars in Europe?

 

[murray t turtle]

You forgot the most important thing from the list of disadvantages:

If the authorities say you have to take this clearly lethal injection or jump off the cliff and you don't obey they can close your access to your money just by one simple mouse click. There is no more free will or choice you are just forced to do everything the elite wants you to do. They have a 100% control on you.

So the "cashless" economy is a very dangerous thing for your freedom. At least there should be legal digital currencies which can be used without any control and acceptance from your authorities.
It must be under your full control what you wan't to do and when with the money you own.

%%
Exactly, some governments easy turn in to control freaks\crazy control freaks. ''Please dont charge your CA ev, now even though that may ruin your life'' And if it ruins your life at least you did not use so much hated fossil fuel
And another advantage thing about cash, checks, coins; not dependent on power grid, computers.......................................................................................
Its very very dangerous to freedom. And ANY card malfunctions more than cash;
or checks.

 

[Overnight]

...European politicians are eager to clamp down on money laundering from criminal and non criminal activities...

Sorry Vic, but this gave me a chuckle. What is money laundering from a non-criminal activity? So you take a legal activity and turn the money made from it illegal by laundering?

 

[M.W.]

I prefer backing by a government that has at least existed for some time than having my life savings backed by hot air and speculators. Call me when all the glitches are worked out and hacks don't occur anymore.

And I don't buy your privacy argument for one second. If the government started to lock down people's savings then that's the moment of revolution and the end of society as we speak. It's almost like trying to sell you a post nuclear war bunker. If nuclear war ever occurred then you have other things to worry about than crawling into a bunker to survive for an extra 3 months. Both events are end of the world events, a despotic US government and a nuclear war. We can discuss the utility of cryptos in some banana republics but the argument is moot for anyone in a western or Asian developed civilization.

Based upon the responses that I've seen in this thread and many others on this site over the years, it seems like the argument really isn't "cash or cashless" because we never hear anyone who is in favor of cash say, "I just love carrying heavy bags of coins and stacks of bills around". Instead, their main bias towards cash always points towards a desire for privacy as it relates to government oversight, intervention and taxation.

Privacy is one of the primary reasons that cryptocurrencies were created and continue to be developed and refined on a daily basis. Some are more private than others for sure.

Whether its paper cash, metal coins, paper checks, electronic bank payments, cryptocurrencies, etc., they all are really the same thing, which are tokens representing the value of a certain amount of an agreed-upon currency, which for the sake of argument, is most often the U.S. Dollar.

All of the tokens mentioned above have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think the writing on the wall is clear moving forward. Just like we created pure digital versions of documents, photos, news, videos, education, and music, there's no doubt that we are moving towards the pure digitization of money.

So moving forward, the question won't be cash vs. cashless because cash is clearly on the way out with each passing day. The question will be "which digital token or payment method best represents my preferences"? For some whose preferences are speed and underlying price stability while still using the traditional banking system, that might be a service like existing Credit/Debit card payments, Venmo, Paypal, Zelle, Cash App, or even a stablecoin like USDC (once they are regulated, which they will be soon).

For those that want to keep the banking system out of it for the most part, their choice may be a fast peer-to-peer transfer using a cryptocurrency such Bitcoin (over the lighting network), Litecoin, ETH, SOL, etc.

For those that are privacy-focused, their choice will be something like Monero, Zcash, etc.

And it goes without saying that all the new token transfers will take place via Phones, Tablets, computers, in-person merchant terminals, etc.

 

[M.W.]

By using as much energy as the entire country of Australia?

Currently, the business world speaks in fiat so crypto isn't really about replacing fiat as a currency. Much of crypto, as well as other traditional new apps and services, are really about addressing the inefficiencies of the traditional banking system.