Carl Icahn moving hedge fund to Miami
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So you actually said "the entity that pays those employees, and without which they'd be out on the streets looking for work", therefore I wouldn't call it a stretch to assume your own words reflected your mentality!
Listen, I'm as pure a capitalist as exists out there. My assertion is purely that asshole behavior toward employees leads to suboptimal financial outcomes for you as the company owner. Those fund managers don't work for me, I haven't shed any crocodile tears over them, quite to the contrary I pointed out that the best of them will be just fine with other employers and Icahn's shareholders take the hit when he's left with the rest and whatever he can pick up in FL. I'm framing this discussion entirely in terms of how this move is suboptimal from a business perspective, so it's unclear why we're now talking about "virtue signaling" and "evil" and "binary" and the like, seems you really really want to think I'm one of those "socialists"! Until today I had no opinion at all about Icahn, but if he's moving to Florida for the quoted reason he wrote in his letter to employees to "enjoy a warmer climate and a more casual pace year-round" then he's engaging in asshole behavior that will yield suboptimal financial results, hard to see how you can argue with that. If there's some issue with NY that makes Miami an operationally or otherwise superior place to run a hedge fund that would otherwise make less money or go out of business in NYC, then it's a necessary move and I'd be the last to disagree, haven't said anything to the contrary in fact. Absent anything other than the man's actual words to the contrary though, one would have to go with the man's words! And if there was such a reason, the non-asshole move would be to explain it to one's employees, which from what I hear (separately from the article) hasn't happened. So we can only again conclude the man's moving for the reason he himself stated or he thinks his employees are either too dumb to understand the reasoning or not important enough to be told (or it's some top secret - I'm not buying that).
I'll leave you with this friendly wager to emphasize that this entire discussion is about financial performance. I'll bet $50, donated to the other's chosen charity, that IEP will underperform the S&P Listed Private Equity Index between today and Dec 31st, 2020. Today IEP is at $67.88 and the index is at $156.56. You only get to give me a hard time (which I'll graciously accept) if you accept the wager in this thread.
From the article quote of "everyone who makes the move will be paid at least as much in salary and bonus next year as they earned in 2018" it sounds like you'll have that money for a year, then I'm guessing your wages will start to reflect the reduced cost of living. And most of his employees have no trouble affording housing, in NYC or anywhere else!If I work for Icanh Hedge Fund, I would jump up and down in joy leaving high tax NYC. Yeh, I can now afford to buy a house, go on vacation and still have $ leftover.
@Sig , I'm amused to note - especially since you've mentioned that you own a business, where this kind of comprehension is required as a part of the daily routine - that you keep missing the "required but not sufficient" aspect of what I'm saying. All of these factors - that they would be out looking for work if the company closed; that employees should be considered and well taken care of within a good business model; that IEP needs good employees, but that employees are fungible to various degrees but a business is not (certainly not to its owner - and arguably, when the usually very large cost of change is taken into account, not to those employees either) - apply. Not a single one of them rules the roost exclusively, nor are they equal.
That dick-brained headline implies that the employees opinions (should) have as much weight as the good of the business. To me, that screams "socialism".
I know you've seen my (extremely sparse) bio, but did I mention that I grew up in Russia? I don't think I did. The whole "October kids" thing, young Pioneer, preparing for membership in the Komsomol, stood in the bread lines... all of that.
Point is, arguing with me about what socialism looks like may not be a strategy with positive expectancy.
We are, as a friend of mine used to say, in violent and argumentative agreement. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on when you argue that Icahn is doing that. You have heard of Hanlon's Razor, yes?
Nope. Not even close. You're the one who latched onto the mention of "socialist" - one that was not made about you. I simply think you're making unwarranted assumptions, and digging an ever deeper hole in defending them, that's all.
From what I've seen in your other posts, you're a pretty smart guy - but I doubt you're going to win this one. Bad postulates, you see.
I'll leave you with this friendly wager to emphasize that this entire discussion is about financial performance. I'll bet $50, donated to the other's chosen charity, that IEP will underperform the S&P Listed Private Equity Index between today and Dec 31st, 2020. Today IEP is at $67.88 and the index is at $156.56. You only get to give me a hard time (which I'll graciously accept) if you accept the wager in this thread.
My friend, there's a reason I sell options rather than buying them: I do not take 50/50 bets - and sure as hell not ones with counterparty risk. If I thought that Icahn's shop could outperform, do you think I'd be doing this work myself???(OK, I lie. I enjoy the hell out of trading, and wouldn't give it up. But still - trust a fund manager??? Do I look totally nuts from where you sit? Don't answer that, rhetorical question...)
But I'll make you a deal: any time you feel like I'm giving you - rather than your ideas - a hard time, just let me know and I'll stop. I'm always after the latter, never the former.
Forgot to address this... you didn't know? This may very well be the bone of contention. The NY government and environment is becoming extremely hostile to wealthy people (witness the Amazon deal, lots of other things - my brother runs a real estate place there, and could tell endless stories.)
As to him being an asshole - possibly; I have no personal knowledge, one way or another. But one of the few things I do know about the man, other than the tremendous success stories, is that he signed the Giving Pledge (along with Buffett and Gates) - going to give away half his wealth to charity. I don't know... seems to kinda weigh against the asshole theory, to me.
I should have said acting like an asshole, thanks for keeping me honest on the ad hominem.
At this point I think we've clarified our thoughts to the point we are generally in agreement, so I'll look forward to future discussions. Have a good weekend.
It's good to treat your employees well, but it's not an obligation. Icahn could do whatever he wants because it's his company and the employees are free to leave if they don't like it.
He made decisions which is best for him, not for the employees because he is not doing charity. He is looking to make profit for himself.
Anyone who advocates for employees' welfare or well-being should seriously consider giving equal profit sharing to all employees.
He made decisions which is best for him, not for the employees because he is not doing charity. He is looking to make profit for himself.
Anyone who advocates for employees' welfare or well-being should seriously consider giving equal profit sharing to all employees.