Capitalism vs Socialism

[N4Apound]

Quote from McFadden5252:

Socialism destroys incentive to succeed.

Agreed.
Apropo to trading, I think of the practical implementations of socialism and capitalism as kind of like candle charts, the distribution of wealth in a society at any point in time being a single candle.

For practical implemenation of capitalism, you have candles that trend upward over time. The distance between the extremes for any particular candle representing the rich and poor is a concern, we want to minimize it and we want the body of the each candle to be fat (representing the middle class). But even if the candle is tall and skinny (rightly provoking much social outcry), the overall trend is still up. So generally everyone benefits, although some much more than others. In a perfect (instead of practical) implementation, only those who merit it would be at the top end. Regardless, generally everyone benefits.

But the plot for practical socialism is that all of the candles are tall and skinny (corrupt beaurocrats on top, everyone else on bottom) and it is either a flat or declining trend. Everyone loses. And the ideal implementation is worse: a perfectly flat line at the bottom of the chart. A somehow-utopian idea that it is better for everyone to be in the toilet together rather than there be progress or abundance that includes any disparate spread among people whatsover.

Capitalism certainly is not perfect and is subject to its own problems and excesses. But it is easy to see that it is WAY better than the alternative.

 

[logic_man]

Quote from oldtime:

republicans won't pass a jobs bill

I've had to resort to trading just to get by. And even then, if they don't raise cap gains I probably won't make much of a contribution to the socialist effort.

I'm doing my part, but everybody needs to do their fair share.

You want a "job" but you are a profitable trader? I guess I am not sure why you would want a job if you can make money trading.

If you are not making enough, but what you're doing is scalable, you should scale it. If you are a retail trader trading futures, nearly any profitable strategy should scale to a level sufficient to make at least 6 figures, if not 7.

 

[trefoil]

Silly thread.
Any urbanized country will necessarily have some sort of social safety net in place for the simple reason that in bad times an unemployed urban worker can't, literally, feed himself if he has no job and no money. So in practice, in the actual real world where we all live, some social insurance is going to exist.
The real question is how easily can you start a new business, and how conducive is the general environment to starting a new one, failing, but then being able to try again.
Here's the index for how easy it is to start a new business in all the different countries of the world, measured in days. The US, Canada, Australia, and Singapore rank way up here; Western Europe, with the notable exceptions of Denmark and France, doesn't look so hot:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_tim_req_to_sta_a_bus_day-time-required-start-business-days

And from The Economist, an excellent article on the lack of a conducive environment for entrepreneurs in Europe, including the fact that if you have a record of going bankrupt in Germany you may be banned for life from being an executive at a large company, not exactly the sort of thing that encourages someone to take the risk of starting a new business:

http://www.economist.com/node/21559618

 

[oldtime]

Quote from logic_man:

You want a "job" but you are a profitable trader? I guess I am not sure why you would want a job if you can make money trading.

If you are not making enough, but what you're doing is scalable, you should scale it. If you are a retail trader trading futures, nearly any profitable strategy should scale to a level sufficient to make at least 6 figures, if not 7.

I didn't say I wanted a job, my great fear is that I will screw up so bad I will need one, but even if I did want one I couldn't get one because the republicans won't pass a jobs bill. Hopefully it will have a mandate forcing employers to hire old men with no marketable skills.

Speaking of jobs and socialism and crony capitalism, I just saw on tv when you get hired at Walmart, they sit down with you and go over your personal finances to see if you will qualify for food stamps. If you do, they show you how to apply. Then with a smile they say, "So,with your food stamps, your hourly wage is actually x dollars per hour!"

 

[clacy]

Quote from oldtime:

I didn't say I wanted a job, my great fear is that I will screw up so bad I will need one, but even if I did want one I couldn't get one because the republicans won't pass a jobs bill. Hopefully it will have a mandate forcing employers to hire old men with no marketable skills.

Speaking of jobs and socialism and crony capitalism, I just saw on tv when you get hired at Walmart, they sit down with you and go over your personal finances to see if you will qualify for food stamps. If you do, they show you how to apply. Then with a smile they say, "So,with your food stamps, your hourly wage is actually x dollars per hour!"

If you need a government "jobs bill" to pass in order to get a job, it's very unlikely that you are a profitable trader.

Btw, the Republicans have tried to pass several jobs bills, but they are DOA in the Senate (just like all of the budgets).

 

[oldtime]

Quote from clacy:

If you need a government "jobs bill" to pass in order to get a job, it's very unlikely that you are a profitable trader.

Btw, the Republicans have tried to pass several jobs bills, but they are DOA in the Senate (just like all of the budgets).

if you need a job it is very unlikely you are a profitable trader

and just how do these several bills the Republicans pass create jobs?

 

[clacy]

Quote from oldtime:

if you need to get a job it is very unlikey you are a profitable trader

and just how do these several bills the Republicans pass create jobs?

I own and operate a business and manage my own portfolio in my free time. Either way, I'm not waiting for the government to help me get a job.

I'm very busy creating jobs however, and it's despite the government, not because of it.

 

[oldtime]

Quote from clacy:

I own and operate a business and manage my own portfolio in my free time. Either way, I'm not waiting for the government to help me get a job.

I'm very busy creating jobs however, and it's despite the government, not because of it.

I hope the business doesn't involve reading comprehension

 

[clacy]

Quote from oldtime:

I hope the business doesn't involve reading comprehension

It doesn't, but I've been successful as an employee, as a business owner, and managing my own portfolio.

Maybe you can figure out a way to monetize your reading comprehension some day.

 

[toc]

Quote from logic_man:

Most definitely "crony capitalism" is a huge concern.

Crony capitalism is really scary and is practiced with fervor in newly opened economies of China, India, Brazil etc. One reason Capitalism has succeeded in the west is because there is much higher standards for following rules and fair play.

Most I would go for socialism is free healthcare and temporary social support to those who got laid off, injured, sick or thrown out of the house type of cases. Maximum welfare support for non medical reasons should be 3 months at the most.