Capitalism vs Socialism

Quote from Random.Capital:

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Germans - amongst others - have done an outstanding job making "socialism" work. They took a country that was a divided, smoking pile of rubble and in less than two generations rebuilt it into a global economic powerhouse. West Germany (and subsequently re-united Germany) has accomplished FAR more since 1945 than the US has accomplished - and they did that with super strong unions, massive social services, healthcare for all, etc.

Based on these and other posts of yours, I genuinely wonder if you even know what the words you are using actually mean.
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You said "nothing destroys the middle class faster than big-C Capitalism".

I replied, in effect, then show me the middle class success stories in a place where there was no capitalism whatsover, e.g. East Germany.

That you replied with some twaddle about West Germany's economic success tells me what I already knew, which is that I don't have to wonder if you even know what the words you are using mean, I know you don't. You can't even distinguish between "east" and "west" for crying out loud.

Even a cursory look at the history of the main socialist party in Germany, the SPD, shows that they've moved steadily to the center over the decades since WWII, so even they realize that their old ideology is obsolete.
 
Quote from oldtime:

the idea is, socialism is method to cool down capitalism. Sometimes you need more, sometimes you need less.

But I think all of us who appreciate the beauty of a free market are concerned about this thing we call cronie capitalism. In that scenario the government steps in and prohibits competition or doles out favors to the powerful.
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Most definitely "crony capitalism" is a huge concern. Also, fraud. One of the most telling moments of Obama's tenure so far was when the then-CEO of IBM, Sam Palmisano, offered to give away IBM technology designed to detect fraud to the government to help reduce Medicare fraud. Obama basically said "Thanks, but no thanks".

That tells me that there is more fraud going on to line the pockets of Obama supporters than non-supporters, so Obama has no problem enabling that fraud to continue. That's about $50B/year that is spent on nothing of value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_fraud

Of course, in the context of $1T/year deficits, it's small potatoes, but still...
 
Socialism = power resides with the centralized bureaucrats and the unproductive who keep them in power

True Capitalism = power resides purely in the free market place

In the US we're probably somewhere in between but lean toward capitalism. That seems to be moving to the left however.

I tend to think the best thing for the US would be to get back closer toward true capitalism, which is what made this country so special, IMO.
 
Socialism destroys incentive to succeed. In the Soviet Union, production in the Business Cycle was hindered by the slightest problems awaiting to be approved by the central planners. Read Revitalizing the Soviet Economy for all you socialist wannabes. 2 Lenninist Economists point out all the inefficiencies in their system. Mikhail Gorbachev met Margaret Thatcher of the UK and simply asked "how can you feed all your people?." Margaret responds, "I don't, the market sets prices for me." Of course this book was released during the end of the Soviet Union or else these economists would have been killed. Centrally Planned Economies are proven to grow less slowly. Why is Hong Kong number 1? It is the most capitalist economy in Asia and the world. But being near Japan, China, etc. It is highly accessible and makes it thrive. Real Capitalism and laissez faire mentality would get us a lot farther. Look at how people become rich, they create the best product and sell it to you for the cheapest price. Is that greed? I don't think so, the 3G iPhone is only .99 cents now! Tax the rich, They Don't do their part! Unfortunately the rich pay more than 40 people around them, while creating thousands of jobs.. Why don't we do our part? Capitalism essentially creates incentive to succeed and become more innovative.
 
Quote from McFadden5252:

Capitalism essentially creates incentive to succeed and become more innovative.
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I'm pretty sure that most people don't want innovation, so the fact that innovation rates would decrease as socialistic policies increased isn't a negative for them.

At any given time, I would wager that 1% of the population is responsible for 99% of the innovation. The rest of the population can barely keep up.
 
Quote from McFadden5252:

Socialism destroys incentive to succeed. In the Soviet Union, production in the Business Cycle was hindered by the slightest problems awaiting to be approved by the central planners. Read Revitalizing the Soviet Economy for all you socialist wannabes. 2 Lenninist Economists point out all the inefficiencies in their system. Mikhail Gorbachev met Margaret Thatcher of the UK and simply asked "how can you feed all your people?." Margaret responds, "I don't, the market sets prices for me." Of course this book was released during the end of the Soviet Union or else these economists would have been killed. Centrally Planned Economies are proven to grow less slowly. Why is Hong Kong number 1? It is the most capitalist economy in Asia and the world. But being near Japan, China, etc. It is highly accessible and makes it thrive. Real Capitalism and laissez faire mentality would get us a lot farther. Look at how people become rich, they create the best product and sell it to you for the cheapest price. Is that greed? I don't think so, the 3G iPhone is only .99 cents now! Tax the rich, They Don't do their part! Unfortunately the rich pay more than 40 people around them, while creating thousands of jobs.. Why don't we do our part? Capitalism essentially creates incentive to succeed and become more innovative.
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when relations with the Soviet Union started opening up, they sent some economists over the the USA. They went to all the drugstores in NYC and wrote down how many bottles of aspirin each store had. When asked why they were dong that they replied, "We have a constant shortage of aspirin and we want to know how much to stock."
 
Again, for those who support the "socialism" side of the debate, please post what you think your role in any future "socialist" society would be. Your choices are:

Commissar
Party Hack
Prole

We know from history that only a small percentage became Commissars, so most of you will, whether you like it or not, either be "party hacks"(if you're above average in intelligence) or "proles" (if you're average or below average in intelligence). You should temper your enthusiasm for socialism on that basis. From some of the posts, we can clearly see that there are some aspiring "party hacks" in our midst.

Basically, if you don't have what it takes to become one of the top 10% of earners in a capitalist society, forget about being a Commissar in a socialist society. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. You're too much of a p*ssy and those who are more aggressive will climb over you to the top of the ladder. Or did you think that all of those alpha males who dominate in a capitalist society were going to disappear? No, they will just redirect their energy toward a different set of goals and you dweebs will still be at the bottom of the barrel, regardless of the fact that the shape of the barrel has changed. That's just life.
 
Quote from logic_man:

Again, for those who support the "socialism" side of the debate, please post what you think your role in any future "socialist" society would be. Your choices are:

Commissar
Party Hack
Prole

We know from history that only a small percentage became Commissars, so most of you will, whether you like it or not, either be "party hacks"(if you're above average in intelligence) or "proles" (if you're average or below average in intelligence). You should temper your enthusiasm for socialism on that basis.

Basically, if you don't have what it takes to become one of the top 10% of earners in a capitalist society, forget about being a Commissar in a socialist society. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. You're too much of a p*ssy and those who are more aggressive will climb over you to the top of the ladder.
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I just want to make enough money so that I owe taxes and can pay for it all.
 
Quote from logic_man:

So why aren't you making money?
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republicans won't pass a jobs bill

I've had to resort to trading just to get by. And even then, if they don't raise cap gains I probably won't make much of a contribution to the socialist effort.

I'm doing my part, but everybody needs to do their fair share.
 
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