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Capitalism vs Socialism
- Thread starter plyka
- Start date
Quote from plyka:
Top 10 Capitalist countries with the freedom index score:
1) Hong Kong 89.9
2) Singapore 87.5
3) Australia 83.1
4) New Zealand 82.1
5) Switzerland 81.1
6) Canada 79.9
This would mark the first time in my getting-long life that someone has put Canada in the "top Capitalists" list. Ditto for Singapore, ANZ, and the Swiss.
That said, it is good to see that relatively high taxes and heavy social services don't disqualify countries from being considered "Capitalist".
Quote from oldtime:
Mexico is one of the most right wing countries in the world. They damn sure aint fleeing to get away from socialism. You want to see what USA would look like without socialism, spend some time down in Mexico.
Or read some Dickens.
Nothing destroys the middle class faster than big-C Capitalism.
Quote from Random.Capital:
Or read some Dickens.
Nothing destroys the middle class faster than big-C Capitalism.
Really? So can you point me in the direction of documentation of the thriving middle class in the former East Germany, where they didn't even have little-c capitalism?
If the Germans or the Israelis on the kibbutzim couldn't make socialism work, nobody can. WTF is it going to take to prove this to people?
That this "debate" is still ongoing is almost enough to disprove Darwin.
well for starters, why don't you show me an example of a capitalist society? If you can ever find one, then we can see how it works.Quote from logic_man:
Really? So can you point me in the direction of documentation of the thriving middle class in the former East Germany, where they didn't even have little-c capitalism?
If the Germans or the Israelis on the kibbutzim couldn't make socialism work, nobody can. WTF is it going to take to prove this to people?
That this "debate" is still ongoing is almost enough to disprove Darwin.
by the way, my son in law lives in Isreal. He had a good job, but wanted to start his own business, so he went to the boss, gave him two weeks notice, and then asked the boss to fire him, which the boss did because he liked him and hopes he will return.
You see, the law is, anybody who gets fired gets 10 months severence at full pay.
I think in Germany it's almost harder to fire a factory worker than it is a teacher in the USA.
Mexico is certainly not socialist in any way I could see, but I'd hardly call it capitalist either. No business gets done there without permission.
Quote from logic_man:
So can you point me in the direction of documentation of the thriving middle class in the former East Germany...
That has nothing to do with what I said.
Germans - amongst others - have done an outstanding job making "socialism" work. They took a country that was a divided, smoking pile of rubble and in less than two generations rebuilt it into a global economic powerhouse. West Germany (and subsequently re-united Germany) has accomplished FAR more since 1945 than the US has accomplished - and they did that with super strong unions, massive social services, healthcare for all, etc.
Based on these and other posts of yours, I genuinely wonder if you even know what the words you are using actually mean.
Quote from oldtime:
well for starters, why don't you show me an example of a capitalist society? If you can ever find one, then we can see how it works.
by the way, my son in law lives in Isreal. He had a good job, but wanted to start his own business, so he went to the boss, gave him two weeks notice, and then asked the boss to fire him, which the boss did because he liked him and hopes he will return.
You see, the law is, anybody who gets fired gets 10 months severence at full pay.
I think in Germany it's almost harder to fire a factory worker than it is a teacher in the USA.
Mexico is certainly not socialist in any way I could see, but I'd hardly call it capitalist either. No business gets done there without permission.
I think the rankings that the OP put up are a good approximation, so that would mean that Singapore, Hong Kong et al. are good examples.
My point was that there was an attempt to "evolve" in the direction of actual socialism in both Germany and Israel and they both collapsed. That there are elements of worker's rights such as generous severance packages or the right to fight an attempted firing is undeniable, but those are relatively small-bore items compared to full-on socialism. And the ability of even those small-bore items to survive over the long haul is not a given, whereas I think it is probably a given that there won't be another global revolution designed to usher in a socialist age, as there was starting in 1917. The world has moved on.
Socialism, as viewed by someone in 1848, seemed at least possible, if not inevitable. Socialism, viewed by someone in 2012, is a regrettable tragedy never to be repeated.
Even socialists, by the time WWI was over, basically had given up on the idea that socialism was a more rational system. Read George Sorel on this point. He was the first socialist to basically say "No, socialism isn't rational, but wouldn't it be cool if the working class took over?". This is supposed to be a philosophy to be taken seriously?
The best thing about capitalism is that you can assume certain things, like that people will act in what they perceive as their self-interest. This makes planning and understanding the reactions to your actions much simpler. In a socialist society, you have to hope that people will act in such a way that things still get done without the profit motive. That one seemingly minor difference has huge effects society-wide. It is also why socialist countries eventually devolve into what can be called "counter-intelligence states" where everyone spies on everyone else to see who is gaming the system. It's all very unhealthy.
the idea is, socialism is method to cool down capitalism. Sometimes you need more, sometimes you need less.Quote from logic_man:
I think the rankings that the OP put up are a good approximation, so that would mean that Singapore, Hong Kong et al. are good examples.
My point was that there was an attempt to "evolve" in the direction of actual socialism in both Germany and Israel and they both collapsed. That there are elements of worker's rights such as generous severance packages or the right to fight an attempted firing is undeniable, but those are relatively small-bore items compared to full-on socialism. And the ability of even those small-bore items to survive over the long haul is not a given, whereas I think it is probably a given that there won't be another global revolution designed to usher in a socialist age, as there was starting in 1917. The world has moved on.
Socialism, as viewed by someone in 1848, seemed at least possible, if not inevitable. Socialism, viewed by someone in 2012, is a regrettable tragedy never to be repeated.
Even socialists, by the time WWI was over, basically had given up on the idea that socialism was a more rational system. Read George Sorel on this point. He was the first socialist to basically say "No, socialism isn't rational, but wouldn't it be cool if the working class took over?". This is supposed to be a philosophy to be taken seriously?
The best thing about capitalism is that you can assume certain things, like that people will act in what they perceive as their self-interest. This makes planning and understanding the reactions to your actions much simpler. In a socialist society, you have to hope that people will act in such a way that things still get done without the profit motive. That one seemingly minor difference has huge effects society-wide. It is also why socialist countries eventually devolve into what can be called "counter-intelligence states" where everyone spies on everyone else to see who is gaming the system. It's all very unhealthy.
But I think all of us who appreciate the beauty of a free market are concerned about this thing we call cronie capitalism. In that scenario the government steps in and prohibits competition or doles out favors to the powerful.