Can you beat someone who religiously buy and hold bitcoin from inception with trading?

[johnarb]

I think I bought $1K worth in 2011. I sold because Bitcoin wasn't actually private.

My perspective hasn't changed. Bitcoin isn't the crypto for me. Gold backed crypto would be nice, except you can't get decentralization since someone has to custody the gold. So the winner for crypto*CURRENCY* will be government backed crypto, or a fiat-linked stablecoin.

But I agree that if you are YOLOing you need to be comfortable with the fluctuations and YOLOs should be a thing you do.

Thanks!

How many bitcoins? It must have been in the thousands

Did you leave on the exchange? I don't think there was a phone wallet app, yet in 2011

Which exchange did you use to buy and sell? Mt Gox? Bitinstant?

Coinbase came into existence in June, 2012, I got into Bitcoin in 2013 when price was ~$100

It's not about YoLo, it's about believing in the ideology that storing money in bitcoin is better than US $ due to the latter that is programmed to debase

Many bitcoin OG's ended up with much less even though they got in so early. Bruce Fenton explained it in a video he posted on Twitter during the 2017 bull market, they had to live off the bitcoins and use for life expenses when the price was much lower. Bruce mentioned he had to use a big chunk when he had a medical emergency

Andreas Antonopoulos was not a millionaire in 2017 bull market, a person who does not need any introduction. He explained it on Twitter and an anonymous donor literally made him a millionaire by sending a million $ worth of bitcoins to his wallet

Luke Dash-Jr had to take donations in 2017 when a storm damaged his home. Luke is a core developer for the bitcoin open-source software and ran bitcoin mining pool Eligis. I mined at the pool for a few weeks, it was a pretty awesome outfit, you can only set a withdrawal address by signing message using the private key

There's a reason I mentioned my paycheck to paycheck situation because it's easy to hodl bitcoin when you don't need the money to begin with

Winklevoss twins own at least 210,000 bitcoins they started buying at $10 all the way to hundreds of $ They have not sold a single bitcoin to date. They own 1% of all the bitcoins that will ever exist. I think they own more than that but those 210,000 bitcoins are in cold storage in banks' safety deposits across the US since 2015 or 16 (Bitcoin Billionaires book by Ben Mezrich)

My example of 10,000 bitcoins would be 20x in magnitude in their case

If I was in your case, I can honestly say I would have saved at least 500 bitcoins until now

I did not have the choice to have even 100 coins as I did not have $10,000 to invest in 2013, but even when I was late paying my credit card bills in the bear market in 2014-2016, I never thought about cashing out and selling all my bitcoins and cryptos

 

[nooby_mcnoob]

Thanks!

How many bitcoins? It must have been in the thousands

Did you leave on the exchange? I don't think there was a phone wallet app, yet in 2011

Which exchange did you use to buy and sell? Mt Gox? Bitinstant?

Coinbase came into existence in June, 2012, I got into Bitcoin in 2013 when price was ~$100

It's not about YoLo, it's about believing in the ideology that storing money in bitcoin is better than US $ due to the latter that is programmed to debase

Many bitcoin OG's ended up with much less even though they got in so early. Bruce Fenton explained it in a video he posted on Twitter during the 2017 bull market, they had to live off the bitcoins and use for life expenses when the price was much lower. Bruce mentioned he had to use a big chunk when he had a medical emergency

Andreas Antonopoulos was not a millionaire in 2017 bull market, a person who does not need any introduction. He explained it on Twitter and an anonymous donor literally made him a millionaire by sending a million $ worth of bitcoins to his wallet

Luke Dash-Jr had to take donations in 2017 when a storm damaged his home. Luke is a core developer for the bitcoin open-source software and ran bitcoin mining pool Eligis. I mined at the pool for a few weeks, it was a pretty awesome outfit, you can only set a withdrawal address by signing message using the private key

There's a reason I mentioned my paycheck to paycheck situation because it's easy to hodl bitcoin when you don't need the money to begin with

Winklevoss twins own at least 210,000 bitcoins they started buying at $10 all the way to hundreds of $ They have not sold a single bitcoin to date. They own 1% of all the bitcoins that will ever exist. I think they own more than that but those 210,000 bitcoins are in cold storage in banks' safety deposits across the US since 2015 or 16 (Bitcoin Billionaires book by Ben Mezrich)

My example of 10,000 bitcoins would be 20x in magnitude in their case

If I was in your case, I can honestly say I would have saved at least 500 bitcoins until now

I did not have the choice to have even 100 coins as I did not have $10,000 to invest in 2013, but even when I was late paying my credit card bills in the bear market in 2014-2016, I never thought about cashing out and selling all my bitcoins and cryptos

Well I don't agree with a fixed quantity. We have population growth, new technologies etc. We need preprogrammed inflation which XMR does pretty well.

I'm happy for you that you believe in it and stuck with it as per your beliefs. That is what great investors are made of. I am not a great investor. I can only think very short term.

I'm a fan of the ideas behind XMR, but again, I still think in 50 years we will be using government backed, or otherwise centralized digital currencies. In the meantime, trading Bitcoin? Sure!

 

[nooby_mcnoob]

Personally, regarding crypto currencies, I would love to see something like DAI's TRFM be implemented for real world commodities.

I'm not quite well versed enough to know how TRFM works but this post has a good summary:

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FMakerDAO%252Fcomments%252F7u5ifh%252F

This is what I think the true future of cryptocurrencies will be. Of course the danger becomes (again) people with more money get more say in the system. I think it should be people who spend more money get more say since they are who make the economy run.

 

[deaddog]

I don't agree totally. It depends on when you get in to buy and hold and which stock/crypto you bought.

If say you bought 10,000 btc at 0.06. There is no way in blue hell a trader can make more by trading.

Reason being as a trader most of the time you don't go all in 100% of your capital. You will use a portion to place a trade to minimize risk. An investor who got in at a cheap price of a strong stock/crypto will make exponential gains as they are always in 100%.

On top of that a trader will face execution friction at some point too. To take advantage of trend following system you have to get in and out quick at precise price points and a small % difference could mean losing the positive edge if the mistakes/slippage are compounded over time.

Too many "Ifs". If an investor bought at 6 cents why wouldn't a trader buy the same amount at 6 cents.

You seem to have trouble grasping how a trader operates. If you buy 100 shares and they double in price then give a sell signal you sell and have doubled your money. Now if price drops 50% , back to the original price you buy again but this time you buy twice as much, because you have doubled your money you can buy 200 shares. Can you see how a trader can end up with more shares than the buy and hold investor?

I know it's a simplistic explanation but by selling high and buying lower the number of shares or bitcoins you own increases with every successful trade.

 

[johnarb]

You seem to have trouble grasping how a trader operates
I know it's a simplistic explanation but by selling high and buying lower the number of shares or bitcoins you own increases with every successful trade.

Theory vs practice

Bitcoin is an 80 vol asset, so I heard

It's the most beautiful asset for traders because of its volatility

One question for you, are you trading it?

I've been hodling bitcoins since last year as an investor. I've added bitcoins to my portfolio as an investor and I have a total of 20 bitcoins, which is a significant portion of our net worth

Here on ET, the Elite Traders like yourself have the same excuses, oh it's too volatile and too scary to trade and margins are too high on the futures, the spreads are too wide

Let me know if you have a different excuse

 

[deaddog]

Let me know if you have a different excuse

I trade Canadian stocks. That's what I do.
I have been in and out of Bitcoin miners, Blockchain Tech, and Digital management companies. HUT and HIVE trade on Canadian and US exchanges. Right now I don't have a position in anything that's crytpo related because they have been selling off.

I don't even know where to buy bitcoin. I've never seen one. .

 

[johnarb]

I trade Canadian stocks. That's what I do.
I have been in and out of Bitcoin miners, Blockchain Tech, and Digital management companies. HUT and HIVE trade on Canadian and US exchanges. Right now I don't have a position in anything that's crytpo related because they have been selling off.

I don't even know where to buy bitcoin. I've never seen one. .

Don't trade miners and proxies, trade the real thing and put on some size, like a real Elite Trader

Post some trade screenshots so we can see how your theory of a trader beats investors

Well, you're in luck, there are Canadian bitcoin SPOT etf's, I think at least 3 as of today

Fidelity released a Canadian Bitcoin spot ETF that has already been trading

Why did you not know about these?

 

[deaddog]

Don't trade miners and proxies, trade the real thing and put on some size, like a real Elite Trader

Post some trade screenshots so we can see how your theory of a trader beats investors

Well, you're in luck, there are Canadian bitcoin SPOT etf's, I think at least 3 as of today

Fidelity released a Canadian Bitcoin spot ETF that has already been trading

Why did you not know about these?

I know about them. I'm looking at BITI. Missed it this morning when it gapped up.

 

[johnarb]

I know about them. I'm looking at BITI. Missed it this morning when it gapped up.

Awesome! Hope you will show everyone here how traders of bitcoin can beat investors with your screenshots of your trades buys and sells

Use bitcoin spot etf's and not the proxies you mentioned in a previous post

 

[nooby_mcnoob]

I trade Canadian stocks. That's what I do.
I have been in and out of Bitcoin miners, Blockchain Tech, and Digital management companies. HUT and HIVE trade on Canadian and US exchanges. Right now I don't have a position in anything that's crytpo related because they have been selling off.

I don't even know where to buy bitcoin. I've never seen one. .

I thought Canadian stocks move too slowly