Can the states stop health reforms?

achilles28 · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from Index piker:

Like I said I appreciate your naivete but if you think relying on the the co-conspiring republicans to all of a sudden discover the constitution well good luck . I don't see it as anything other than histrionics, then it's back to business as usual 7 months from now.

It's laughable you think the Libertarian/Ron Paul/States Rights movement will "blow over" in 7 months.

20+ States have passed resolutions to reaffirm the 10th Amendment. Effectively drawing a line in the sand for the FEDS.

It's been what? 24 hours since healthcare passed, and already 12 states have filed to contest it under the 10th Amendment.

This generations Constitutional Renaissance grew from a mere scattering of Patriots and Veterans a decade ago, to MILLIONS today. And it's growing, everyday. You're 7 months comment is a complete joke.

In 3-5 years, America's dominant political ideology will be Libertarian. Then, there'll be a war. That's what all this DHS crap is for - Veterans, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Gun owners and true Conservatives. Says that right in their own documents.

You need to get in the fight. Support Ron Paul or another True Independent. Seriously, the last thing America needs is another defeatist carpetbagger who throws stones all day = useless.

Rabbitone · Mar 23, 2010

You have done an excellent job of explaining the grave issues that face Americans today fighting for our individual freedoms. Elected national officials are blind to the constitution and our freedoms they swear to defend and uphold through their term of office. It is time we held their feet to the fire. This test of Obamacare is just the beginning.

I also agree with you about the nation will become libertarian.

According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy libertarians are committed:

ââ¦ to the belief that individuals, and not states or groups of any other kind, are both ontologically and normatively primary; that individuals have rights against certain kinds of forcible interference on the part of others; that liberty, understood as non-interference, is the only thing that can be legitimately demanded of others as a matter of legal or political right; that robust property rights and the economic liberty that follows from their consistent recognition are of central importance in respecting individual liberty; that social order is not at odds with but develops out of individual liberty; that the only proper use of coercion is defensive or to rectify an error; that governments are bound by essentially the same moral principles as individuals; and that most existing and historical governments have acted improperly insofar as they have utilized coercion for plunder, aggression, redistribution, and other purposes beyond the protection of individual liberty. â¦â

I have heard person after person state their disdain for Washington politicians and state they hold strong libertarian views. But when I asked them ââ¦are you libertarianâ¦â I get strange puzzled looks. One was even so bold as to ask me why I was asking him if he was supporting the womenâs movements. This is the type of ignorance we need to congeal if we will ever have a case to regain our freedomsâ¦

Quote from achilles28:

It's laughable you think the Libertarian/Ron Paul/States Rights movement will "blow over" in 7 months.

20+ States have passed resolutions to reaffirm the 10th Amendment. Effectively drawing a line in the sand for the FEDS.

It's been what? 24 hours since healthcare passed, and already 12 states have filed to contest it under the 10th Amendment.

This generations Constitutional Renaissance grew from a mere scattering of Patriots and Veterans a decade ago, to MILLIONS today. And it's growing, everyday. You're 7 months comment is a complete joke.

In 3-5 years, America's dominant political ideology will be Libertarian. Then, there'll be a war. That's what all this DHS crap is for - Veterans, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Gun owners and true Conservatives. Says that right in their own documents.

You need to get in the fight. Support Ron Paul or another True Independent. Seriously, the last thing America needs is another defeatist carpetbagger who throws stones all day = useless.

Scataphagos · Mar 23, 2010

Remember the You Tube video... the actor reprsenting Thomas Paine? The one who advised Americans to "take back your country", and about our "non-representing, representatives"?

Passage of the Obamacare/Tyrrany bill shows just how "non-representing" our representatives are.

It's like they've sworn a blood-oath allegiance to Obama and Pelosi (Just as did the SS and Gestapo to Hitler, instead of allegiance to their country, Germany) rather than to uphold their swearing-into-office pledge to "support the US Constitution".

The Democrats who voted for Obamacare are the enemies of America and need to be kicked out on their collective asses, or worse.

nickdes · Mar 23, 2010

Unfortunately many in both houses want to elimate our constitutional freedoms...

Most Democratic citizens have no clue what the Constitution is!!!! Some Republican citizens are the same, "key word some" "Key word Most"

Scataphagos · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from nickdes:

Unfortunately many in both houses want to elimate our constitutional freedoms...

Of course they do. That's ALWAYS what government wants. That's also why the Founding Fathers gave us the Constitution... TO PROTECT US FROM THE SAME GOVERNMENT GREED AND POWER OVER OUR LIVES WE ARE EXPERIENCING THIS VERY TIME!.

Without the US Constitution (AND ADHERING TO ITS PRINCIPLES), we're little different from any other Monarchy, Dictatorship, Oligarchy throughout history.

Unless we are able to "take back our country".... to revert government toward Constitutional limitations, at least to a degree.... we will be much like Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, or maybe France.. in no time at all. THAT IS OBAMA'S MISSION! HE TOLD US THAT IN HIS CAMPAIGN, BE WE WEREN'T LISTENING. Message is clear now, isn't it?

Personally, I doubt we'll be able to do it.

TGregg · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from Index piker:

Welfare states like the one we are growing into rapidly is not unlike the alcoholic. Both need to hit the bottom of despair in order for a permanent change in psyche to develop. The faster that happens the better.

World history suggests a mere great depression is not the bottom, but a communist dictatorship that lasts for a generation might be.

Quote from Index piker:

Economic reality cannot be legislated away and govt's the world over don't get it.

The people do not get it. The ultimate problem our founders faced was how to keep government from growing. The only way to do that (so far as anybody has figured out yet) is to have an educated, moral citizenry that uses sufferage to keep the powers in line. One also needs strong cultural norms that reinforce "shortcuts" in thinking, like a fundemental belief that one does not get something for nothing, and if you #@&^ up, you're going to suffer for it.

Get rid of the education, morals and culture - and you're ready to enslave.

Index piker · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from TGregg:

World history suggests a mere great depression is not the bottom, but a communist dictatorship that lasts for a generation might be.

The people do not get it. The ultimate problem our founders faced was how to keep government from growing. The only way to do that (so far as anybody has figured out yet) is to have an educated, moral citizenry that uses sufferage to keep the powers in line. One also needs strong cultural norms that reinforce "shortcuts" in thinking, like a fundemental belief that one does not get something for nothing, and if you #@&^ up, you're going to suffer for it.

Get rid of the education, morals and culture - and you're ready to enslave.

Can't argue with you too much, but I disagree about the effects of a great depression.

Although it's not the surefire way of getting back to our founding father's ideals as needed I think it's a proven catalyst for change of the dominate political thought.

TGregg · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from Index piker:

Can't argue with you too much, but I disagree about the effects of a great depression.

I offer you Detroit Michigan as an example. Despite 50 years of higher taxes, plenty of liberalism and Soak The Rich idealism with all the obvious results of misery, they are holding true to their course. Do not make the mistake of thinking that people are suddenly going to realize they've wasted their lives on a foolish idea and they cannot get something for nothing.

Want more evidence? Look around the world. Despite mountains of data, most of the planet believes that capitialism makes poor people poor. Go to any POS dirt poor third world hell hole and the worse off they are, the more strongly they cling to big government, bad rich people and somebody should give them x,y and z. Christ, communism made half of those hard working industrial engineers (the Germans) dirt poor, while semi-liberty made the other half a lot better off. The economic powerhouse on the planet is also place with the most capitialism and liberty, but we close our eyes to that. It's much better to believe in the socialist Santa Clause who'll drop by our house and leave a shiny new bike for us under the tree. And even if big government cannot do that, at least they can get even with the rich people. "You may be making a lot of money, but I get some of it" is better for a lot of us than making it ourselves.

No, when the SHTF people are going to cling to big government and demand that somebody else pay for things they want - more than ever. Which'll make things worse and spiral down the tubes until we ditch the ideal of capitialism. They'll even say "capitialism failed."

Rabbitone · Mar 23, 2010

You struck a raw nerveâ¦

I live in the suburbs of Detroit. I have walked through 30 below wind chills on the Detroit river to work in the buildings of Detroit. I have driven through the urban decay for close to 50 years. I have watched people lives destroyed by the promises of government and business that have always ended up in the next cycle of hopelessness. I have seen co-workers blow their brains out literally (job gone wife gone). The last 10 years while people lived it up we suffered though a depression as auto companies gutted themselves to the size of foreign upstarts.

Now more than half of Detroit is a waste land of rotting homes that need to be torn down. But we have never had sympathy from anyone. Instead we were held up to scorn as once people thrown out of work turned to crime and drugs to survive their miserable existence. If you came and looked you would say âwowâ¦this looks like how Haiti was described to meâ¦â

But some how the people in this dirt poor third world hell hole manage to survive and in some cases thrive. Yes they cling to big government as a savior that will never come for them. I have heard Detroiters say and they believe that living this way in a free society is far better than being subjugated to an evil government until nowâ¦.

Quote from TGregg:

I offer you Detroit Michigan as an example. Despite 50 years of higher taxes, plenty of liberalism and Soak The Rich idealism with all the obvious results of misery, they are holding true to their course. Do not make the mistake of thinking that people are suddenly going to realize they've wasted their lives on a foolish idea and they cannot get something for nothing.

Want more evidence? Look around the world. Despite mountains of data, most of the planet believes that capitialism makes poor people poor. Go to any POS dirt poor third world hell hole and the worse off they are, the more strongly they cling to big government, bad rich people and somebody should give them x,y and z. Christ, communism made half of those hard working industrial engineers (the Germans) dirt poor, while semi-liberty made the other half a lot better off. The economic powerhouse on the planet is also place with the most capitialism and liberty, but we close our eyes to that. It's much better to believe in the socialist Santa Clause who'll drop by our house and leave a shiny new bike for us under the tree. And even if big government cannot do that, at least they can get even with the rich people. "You may be making a lot of money, but I get some of it" is better for a lot of us than making it ourselves.

No, when the SHTF people are going to cling to big government and demand that somebody else pay for things they want - more than ever. Which'll make things worse and spiral down the tubes until we ditch the ideal of capitialism. They'll even say "capitialism failed."

dandxg · Mar 23, 2010

Quote from TGregg:

I offer you Detroit Michigan as an example. Despite 50 years of higher taxes, plenty of liberalism and Soak The Rich idealism with all the obvious results of misery, they are holding true to their course. Do not make the mistake of thinking that people are suddenly going to realize they've wasted their lives on a foolish idea and they cannot get something for nothing.

Want more evidence? Look around the world. Despite mountains of data, most of the planet believes that capitialism makes poor people poor. Go to any POS dirt poor third world hell hole and the worse off they are, the more strongly they cling to big government, bad rich people and somebody should give them x,y and z. Christ, communism made half of those hard working industrial engineers (the Germans) dirt poor, while semi-liberty made the other half a lot better off. The economic powerhouse on the planet is also place with the most capitialism and liberty, but we close our eyes to that. It's much better to believe in the socialist Santa Clause who'll drop by our house and leave a shiny new bike for us under the tree. And even if big government cannot do that, at least they can get even with the rich people. "You may be making a lot of money, but I get some of it" is better for a lot of us than making it ourselves.

No, when the SHTF people are going to cling to big government and demand that somebody else pay for things they want - more than ever. Which'll make things worse and spiral down the tubes until we ditch the ideal of capitialism. They'll even say "capitialism failed."

So how do explain Vermont, socialistic, or Scandinavia as a whole? Eh, how about our neighbors to the North, Canada. None of them have collapsed? We can all find extreme examples to attempt to validate our hypotheses.

Even your own example of Germany, modern day, has many social programs, much more than the good ol' USA. So please explain that one.

Detroit, is it that hard to figure out? Really you get paid significantly more, both management and employees for making an inferior product and there is an eventual collapse. My gawd I can't believe it.