Quote from skeptic123:
If you want to go so far back in history, what you are describing happened "in the second place", or maybe in seventeenth. What happened "in the first place" is described in the bible - jewish state with capital in Jerusalem.
yes, but, if we take the most recent position as the most important -- which is precisely what we do with the rest of the world -- then i think 1500 hard years really does count for something.
You are right, in the beginning of the previous century the jews started arriving by boatloads, but they did not steal or occupy the land, they obtained it then using all LEGAL means possible. They settled on the land which did not belong to anybody with the permission of local authorities, they bought the land from local arabs. It did not cost much then, it was a desert. It still is in arab territories BTW.
"legal" according to who? the british authorities with their BS (imperialist) 'mandate'? maybe 'legal', surely not morally justifiable.
what you say is true in that the jews were a very hard working people and they made excellent use of very limited resources. the problem was that their swarming numbers started becoming a real concern to the arabs.
if you think that the whole episode -- from settlers to nationhood -- happened peacefully while the arabs stood around smiling and waving then you couldn't be more wrong.
in fact, i think it would be pretty fair to say that israel was created by the very terrorism that it is now endeavouring to stamp out. (well, that's an exaggeration, but i hope you get my point.)
At any rate the whole 2K year history of the conflict is way too complicated to discuss here. Both sides have legitimate grievances, but if Arabs keep basing their policy on premises that the Jews stole their land and the only "fair" solution is to drive them into the sea, the situation will never be solved.
it's tempting to think that it's a long, convoluted (2000 year) history, what with all the (religious) connections between the jews and that region of the world. but, if you discount the religious factor -- and why not? we have done so with every single other displaced people -- then i think it is a lot simpler: there was a group of people that followed a certain religion that lived in a certain place. they were conquered, the followers dispersed over the whole world (some did stay) and another group of people moved in and settled there for the subsequant 1500 years. i know this is an emotional issue, but seriously, where the hell do the jews get off just barging in with some ridiculous 2000 year old claim that god gave them that land and therefore, dammit, we have a right to it?
i think if ever the world conspired to create an illegal state it was modern day israel.
now, sooner or later, enough time will pass (some might say it already has) that the existence of israel, and the events that lead to its creation will just be considered another mundane fact of history. (much like the angles' and jutes' expulsion of the celts (if recall correctly) doesn't really arouse any emotion from anybody). and that's the way history goes.
having said that, i agree that trying to 'turn back the clock' on history is futile. i agree that if the palestinians, and arabs in general, continue to insist on the destruction of the state of israel, then not only will they never have peace, but they continue to destroy any chance they have of ever being able to improve the quality of their lives (and shouldn't that be the most important thing?).
In my original post I was just trying to say the Arab hatred of USA has nothing to do with UN resolutions and has everything to do with USA helping Israel to survive as a state. You response states the Arab point of view. I do respect it but it pretty much confirms my conclusion.
well, i wouldn't go so far as to say it has "everything" do with US support for israel; i think you'd find a lot of the (hardcore) arabs still opposed to the US on other principles.
ps - i'm really not 'anti-israel' at all. just stating things how i see them. i really do my level best to stay objective. (for example, i'm from (FYR ) macedonia, but i'll readily admit that it is a 20th century creation; that there is no historical basis neither for a slavic macedonian state (unless you call it bulgaria) nor for a slavic macedonian national identity.)
