Can I long and short simultaneously ?

[Girija]

It is not illegal but this can't be used for tax deferral/ adjustment.
Not allowed doesn't make sense. You can operate multiple accts with disparate brokers.
Perhaps big prime brokers may allow in the same account. You can have a core holding of aapl for long term while expressing a short term bearish interest.

 

[jnbadger]

I highly doubt long equity in one account and the same stock short in other account is allowed on a larger scale...
Cause it would allow you to bypass SSR and open a short position by selling your longs into the bid.

That's exactly why we used to do it. It is strictly forbidden now. That being said, you can hold a stock in an IRA or 401k for the long term, and short it as a day trader, and that's not an issue. If your long term account is not a retirement account, It's honestly getting wishy washy, and it's getting over my head, regulation wise.

We used to sit down every morning, when every stock out there had an SSR attached to it, and go long in one account and short in another (always had to be on an up tick) for the stocks we were thinking of shorting that day. I don't really disagree with the current 10% rule, but God, that was a pain in the ass.

 

[KCalhoun]

go long in one account and short in another

That's also a little-known trick that some of the chatroom gurus do, like the guys who claim to make huge fortunes day trading. On-screen they go long in a position, while off screen a confederate puts on an equivalent short position in a different account.

That way the guru trades relatively risk-free, because they have simultaneous long and short positions on in the same instrument. But the people in the chat room only see the long position being broadcast.

Another trick is to trade a Sim account but claim that it is a real money account. The way to expose this trick is to request the guru trade an Odd trade size, like 67 shares, and tell you exactly when he puts the order on. Now look for that specific order in time and sales as it scrolls by. Do this two or three times. Any honest chat room trainer who is claiming they trade live should have no objections to this.

 

[JSOP]

Is it technically possible to buy to enter then sell to enter without first having to sell to exit?

In options, no, not even from different accounts. It's called making market and you are not allowed to do that as a retail trader. For futures and FX, also no but some brokers like IB will allow you to do it from different accounts. For stocks, I dunno.

 

[Sig]

That's exactly why we used to do it. It is strictly forbidden now. That being said, you can hold a stock in an IRA or 401k for the long term, and short it as a day trader, and that's not an issue.

There are some rules around this too that can screw you up if you're not careful. Basically designed to prevent people from moving money into a retirement account with paired trades to take advantage of the tax shield. Otherwise you could trade with yourself on a wide bid/ask stock in your Roth and instantly get a loss in your taxable with no gain to pay on the gain in your Roth. Unfortunately the rules can get you even if you're not doing something nefarious like that.

 

[VicBee]

It is not illegal but this can't be used for tax deferral/ adjustment.
Not allowed doesn't make sense. You can operate multiple accts with disparate brokers.
Perhaps big prime brokers may allow in the same account. You can have a core holding of aapl for long term while expressing a short term bearish interest.

I didn't realize I was going to open a can of legal worms with my question which was primarily technical and not well presented. Your example of aapl is was I wanted to do, but couldn't figure out if and how to do it in TOS. Once in a long or short position, there's no way to enter with an opposing position without first closing the original position, unless I'm doing this from 2 different accounts.
I was also asking because TOS US allows things not available on TOS in other countries, like the ability to choose which lots to sell instead of FIFO only. I wondered if my question had to do with a similar technical limitation.

 

[MoreLeverage]

Lots of bad information here. You can do this if your broker lets you. Why is less clear, since the tax benefits have been long removed via “constructive sale” rules that treat creating a box position as a taxable event.

TDA will let you do this for stocks, for example, but once you have a short, they’ll make you cover your short before you can sell the long part. But that’s their policy, others are different (don’t allow it, allow it without issues, automatically close the box daily, etc).

 

[mervyn]

You guys are reading too much into this. I do this all the time, long or long dated trades in my Fidelity Brokerage account and short or short dated trades in my IBKR account, for the same underlings. Tax is another issue but unless you are a TTS, wash sales can't be voided, so just have to be mindful.

 

[VicBee]

You guys are reading too much into this. I do this all the time, long or long dated trades in my Fidelity Brokerage account and short or short dated trades in my IBKR account, for the same underlings. Tax is another issue but unless you are a TTS, wash sales can't be voided, so just have to be mindful.

Right, as long as you have 2 different accounts you can do anything. But if you use a single account, hold 100 shares long and get caught in a steep reverse, there is no mechanism to short that same stock without first having to exit the long at a loss because those shares are in your portfolio and have to be dealt with first.
I'm not concerned with the tax implications.

 

[Xwell]

Working with 1 account, you need to be careful to do everything according to your mind, but you have several accounts, you can take advantage of many opportunities