Can Etrade be held liable?

[brokerboy]

Here is kizzy posting his first question on elite. The post title is called margin buying power on 2-14-05

Quote from kizzy:

hey,
does anyone know any quality brokers that give a buying power greater than 2-1 on non-daytrading accounts that are funded with less than 25k.
thanks.

So from day one you were looking to get around the NASD rules. This is like a girl dressing all sexy. She then tells her friend she is going out to get laid and that fuck is going to be her new sugar daddy. Well next morning she wakes up with a hangover and a fat guy named Gilbert in her bed. If Gilbert is poor can be charged with rape?

 

[zdreg]

brokerboy


Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 1009


New Post 07-23-05 11:06 PM

Here is kizzy posting his first question on elite. The post title is called margin buying power on 2-14-05

Quote from kizzy:

hey,
does anyone know any quality brokers that give a buying power greater than 2-1 on non-daytrading accounts that are funded with less than 25k.
thanks.



So from day one you were looking to get around the NASD rules. This is like a girl dressing all sexy. She then tells her friend she is going out to get laid and that fuck is going to be her new sugar daddy. Well next morning she wakes up with a hangover and a fat guy named Gilbert in her bed. If Gilbert is poor can be charged with rape?


not exactly. kizzy is not knowledgable..
did one of you slightly more knowledgable series 7 prop traders tell him what to do.

this whole inicdent just goes to show-
never wish for anything. . you might get
it.

 

[zdreg]

Quote from kizzy:

just an update.

it seems that the nasd contacted etrade. they have closed my acct, completely. i called them today to inquire about how they wanted to handle the situation now that i can't access my acct. to my astonishment the rep told me that they had no records of my acct number. she even had the audacity to a ask me to submit a new app 4 a new acct. thank goodness i have all the emails of my confirmations. there's something fishy going on here. its a dirty, dirty game.

don't confuse incompetentcy with venality.
you need a lawyer. if they are trying to create a coverup you might have lucked out big time. if the matter turns out to be a coverup and you uncover it, it will cost them millionsin fines +a big time payoff to you.

 

[dgabriel]

I think this Kizzy guy just invented the whole episode.

 

[kjkent1]

Quote from brokerboy:

Here is kizzy posting his first question on elite. The post title is called margin buying power on 2-14-05

So from day one you were looking to get around the NASD rules. This is like a girl dressing all sexy. She then tells her friend she is going out to get laid and that fuck is going to be her new sugar daddy. Well next morning she wakes up with a hangover and a fat guy named Gilbert in her bed. If Gilbert is poor can be charged with rape?

Gilbert can be charged with rape if he forced Sexy to have sex. Etrade can be charged with fraudulent misrepresentation if it induced kizzy to trade at margin levels that were in violation of SEC regs, after making representations to kizzy that such margin levels were permissible. Kizzy's first ET post appears to demonstrate that kizzy wasn't induced to trade at more than 2-1 levels, therefore he probably will not recover from Etrade on a fraudulent misrepresentation theory.

Etrade may nevertheless have been negligent in permitting kizzy to trade at high margin levels, even if kizzy assumed the risk of loss. A person cannot assume a risk that he does not contemplate and understand. Kizzy may not understand the risk of the margin levels that he used.

As for kizzy's account being closed, well, if it's empty, and Etrade does not wish to maintain kizzy as a customer, then they can certainly close his account, so as to prevent him from any further loss. If I were the account manager for Etrade, and kizzy alleged that he was bilked by a faulty trading system, I would take remedial measures and close kizzy's account so as to prevent any further damages from accruing.

All in all, I'd say there's nothing unusual about anything that has occurred since kizzy complained to Etrade.

 

[dgabriel]

Quote from kjkent1:

Gilbert can be charged with rape if he forced Sexy to have sex. Etrade can be charged with fraudulent misrepresentation if it induced kizzy to trade at margin levels that were in violation of SEC regs, after making representations to kizzy that such margin levels were permissible. Kizzy's first ET post appears to demonstrate that kizzy wasn't induced to trade at more than 2-1 levels, therefore he probably will not recover from Etrade on a fraudulent misrepresentation theory.

Etrade may nevertheless have been negligent in permitting kizzy to trade at high margin levels, even if kizzy assumed the risk of loss. A person cannot assume a risk that he does not contemplate and understand. Kizzy may not understand the risk of the margin levels that he used.

As for kizzy's account being closed, well, if it's empty, and Etrade does not wish to maintain kizzy as a customer, then they can certainly close his account, so as to prevent him from any further loss. If I were the account manager for Etrade, and kizzy alleged that he was bilked by a faulty trading system, I would take remedial measures and close kizzy's account so as to prevent any further damages from accruing.

All in all, I'd say there's nothing unusual about anything that has occurred since kizzy complained to Etrade.

What if:

Kizzy visited Gilbert and Kizzy drank 10 beers with Gilbert and passed out. The next morning upon wakening, Kizzy finds himself with no pants, a sore anus, and his E*T account cleaned out.

Question, can Kizzy sue GIlbert for a double bump and run?

 

[BSAM]

Quote from dgabriel:

What if:

Kizzy visited Gilbert and Kizzy drank 10 beers with Gilbert and passed out. The next morning upon wakening, Kizzy finds himself with no pants, a sore anus, and his E*T account cleaned out.

Question, can Kizzy sue GIlbert for a double bump and run?

Not sure, but can't he be charged with nonfailure to render aids?

 

[Boudicca]

Quote from kjkent1:

Full disclosure to potential traders would be to show the performance statistics of those retail traders who actually trade with the brokerage, so that there is no illusion as to what kind of performance can be expected.

I'm not sure brokerages keep performance statistics on their customers. Do they? I don't think they could reasonably be required to quote statistics from studies done by third parties either since they could not confirm the accuracy of them.

Investment firms portray themselves as places of financial enlightenment where customers are more likely to make money than to lose it.

I think this is idea also subjective. All companies try to portray themselves better than their competition but I haven't seen any advertisements since the bubble popped that I would say promoted easy money.

They promote the idea that there are sophisticated techniques by which the investor can outperform the market.

Some of us who trade believe there are tools that lend an edge like charts and real-time pricing information. They are promoting what many in the field use as tools to make money. I don't see a crime in that.

Such positive statements, if made by a "racetrack" or even a car dealer would be deemed fraudulent misrepresentations.

I don't know about racetracks because I really have never bet on racing but you are not correct in the car dealer area - or at least the car manufacturer area. I recently saw a commercial where a particular make/model of vehicle approached a different car at a traffic light and as it passed it, the competing car disentegrated and its passengers bumped their butts on the pavement. I believe they were saying their vehicle would blow the competition away.

But, in the investment industry, it's all good, and moreover, brokerage houses are permitted to disclaim all liability, whereas, if in your scenario re the horse breaking its leg, if the racetrack knew that the horse was actually likely to break its leg during a race, I actually would have a legal claim for recovery based on negligent or intentional misrepresentation.

So then, if a race is run in the rain or other bad weather that makes the track slicker than usual, one could make the argument that an animal was more likely to break it's leg during that race? I think this example is subjective as well.

As for disclosure, I got this email from IB. Several of the disclosures deal with "risk". There is a lot of information to be had already regarding risk but I believe it is a human condition to think... it's not going to happen to me. No amount of disclosure will remedy that. But experience will.

Dear IB Customer:

Interactive Brokers LLC ("IB") is required by its regulators to periodically provide you with certain disclosures and other information. Accordingly, we are delivering the following documents to you:

(1) Disclosure of Risks of Margin Trading
(2) Electronic Trading and Order Routing Systems Risk Disclosure Statement
(3) After-Hours Trading Risk Disclosure Statement
(4) Day Trading Risk Disclosure
(5) Order Routing and Payment for Order Flow Disclosure
(6) Risks of Trading Equity Options and Terms and Conditions for Trading Equity Options
(7) Important Information Regarding U.S. Option Exchange Rules
(8) Disclosure Regarding IB's Procedures for Allocating Equity Option Exercise Notices Assigned by the OCC
(9) Notice Regarding Pre-Arranged Trading on U.S. Exchanges
(10) NASD Investor Protection Information Resources (Rule 2280)
(11) Notice Regarding NFA's Basic System
(12) Customer Consent to Accept Electronic Records and Communications
(13) IB Customer Information Policies and Procedures
(14) IB Group Privacy Statement and
(15) IB Financial Statements.

 

[brokerboy]

My problem is he takes no personal fault. Every firm seems to let people manipulate margin and I think most people learn about margin the hard way. He was begging for a lot of buying power because he thought he was smarter then everybody else. There is no chance of him getting his money back and its funny he keeps calling Etrade. I also am willing to bet he was hiding this account from the financial firm he works for. Must firms like workers making trades in house and have 2 week hold periods at least.

 

[kjkent1]

Quote from Boudicca:

So then, if a race is run in the rain or other bad weather that makes the track slicker than usual, one could make the argument that an animal was more likely to break it's leg during that race? I think this example is subjective as well.[/i]

I don't know how you drew the above question from my racetrack hypothetical, but it's not even close to what I was trying to demonstrate. My direct answer to your question here is "yes," one could make the argument as you suggest. However, in my original scenario, the track is dry, the weather is clear, and the horse looks great to the untrained and even the educated eye, but the racetrack KNOWS with near certainty that the horse will break its leg.

Under such conditions, the track could be held liable for permitting the horse to race, and the public to wager on the horse's chances. And, that is precisely what the average person is confronted with when contemplating opening a retail trading account.

In my view, the solution to this problem is "full disclosure," as I have already described.