C

[hftvol]

are you not the same guy who asks retarded questions on Quant Exchange and whose answers nobody seemed to care?

If you have something of substance to add why dont you do so , otherwise why wasting your resources to put down nonsense?

Quote from cdcaveman:

favorite thread for learning about programming languages from difficult, know it all programmers.. haha

 

[cdcaveman]

Quote from hftvol:

are you not the same guy who asks retarded questions on Quant Exchange and whose answers nobody seemed to care?

If you have something of substance to add why dont you do so , otherwise why wasting your resources to put down nonsense?

thats the nice thing about a public forum.. i can say whatever i want.. and on quant stack exchange to.. don't worry i'm not sensitive... keep the love coming...

 

[misaki]

Guys, I think it is rather rude that you regress back to the whole C/C++ vs C# thing without addressing what I said. If you don't agree, at least acknowledge that I provided a valid argument and give reasons why you disagree.

Quote from misaki:

I can understand if this was C# vs Java, but why are we having a language war between C++ and C#?

There are several nice features about C++, e.g. resource management vs C# IDisposable, templates vs C# generics, compiler support and platform neutrality; almost everything has C++ bindings, much cleaner way to access a wide range of tools as opposed to .NET interoperability and C# marshaling. vicirek's point has some credit - it boils down to the fact that 'faster' aspects of the .NET framework class library simply mean better, more heavily-optimized implementations than the C++ standard library (e.g. System.IO).

Then I'd much rather build GUIs with C# than C++. C# .NET development is a much more centralized experience, since there's one really, really good IDE and a few pariah IDEs mostly for Mono development.

Finally, there's always variability in user experiences - I can probably write a production implementation in Fortran 90 faster than C#, but that doesn't mean anything about the two languages besides give possible hints of my age and working background.

Moral of the story: (1) C# vs C++ for your financial applications is usually a business cost-benefit decision; (2) you generally speak of faster implementations, not faster languages. (3) Good programmers are usually indifferent to the language choice, as I've said in page 4. So if you need to ask what language you are using, or find yourself participating in language wars, chances are that you're better off using the one you're most familiar with.

Now can we go back on topic and I hear more about what you guys are doing with C?

If you really want to start a language war... Having written quite a lot of Fortran 90 and assembly, I think people who complain about the development time in C++ are wusses.

(edit: attachment deleted for proprietary reasons)

 

[hftvol]

I have now written several posts DIRECTLY targeting your questions, showed use cases of C. File IO is definitely not one of them.

But here is my main point why I advice not to use C in most cases unless you can solve the problem at hand in C and by far not as efficiently in other languages:

Programming projects nowadays peruse a host of different modules, libraries, that you may not have written but still want to use because they have been extensively tested and are proven to work. So, if you can find plenty C based libraries that all solve your programming problems and meet requirements then go ahead, code it all in C. I myself have not seen hardly a single library that is nowadays developed in C. By far the most popular compiled language right now when looking at newly developed libraries is C#, then Java, then C++. Just look at most code repositories, discussions such as on SO, then you know what I mean. But again, if you know C and find all you need in C then go with C, otherwise there is hardly any reason that would justify usage of C over C# or other languages that allow you to code a lot faster, strongly typed (leading to much less errors even before unit testing). Does that answer your question?

Quote from misaki:

Guys, I think it is rather rude that you regress back to the whole C/C++ vs C# thing without addressing what I said. If you don't agree, at least acknowledge that I provided a valid argument and give reasons why you disagree.



If you really want to start a language war... Having written quite a lot of Fortran 90 and assembly, I think people who complain about the development time in C++ are wusses.

 

[misaki]

Quote from hftvol:

I have now written several posts DIRECTLY targeting your questions, showed use cases of C. File IO is definitely not one of them.

I think you're mistaking me for another poster (I'm not the threadstarter?) - if you read my quoted text, I did write in favor of System.IO over iostream, and I did write in favor of high-level programming very early on in this thread.

Quote from hftvol:But here is my main point why I advice not to use C in most cases unless you can solve the problem at hand in C and by far not as efficiently in other languages:

Programming projects nowadays peruse a host of different modules, libraries, that you may not have written but still want to use because they have been extensively tested and are proven to work. So, if you can find plenty C based libraries that all solve your programming problems and meet requirements then go ahead, code it all in C. I myself have not seen hardly a single library that is nowadays developed in C. By far the most popular compiled language right now when looking at newly developed libraries is C#, then Java, then C++. Just look at most code repositories, discussions such as on SO, then you know what I mean. But again, if you know C and find all you need in C then go with C, otherwise there is hardly any reason that would justify usage of C over C# or other languages that allow you to code a lot faster, strongly typed (leading to much less errors even before unit testing). Does that answer your question?

Popularity: That's untrue. Anecdotal evidence such as what you have read on SO is a very unscientific means to determine a language's popularity. If you want to go this route, at least refer to the TIOBE index, which is widely-cited and has a much more quantitative methodology, and in which C and C++ both rank above C# as of 03/2013.

(edit: Nevermind, I don't see any point in participating in this thread any further.)

 

[bln]

256mb? Hey, wake up, we live in 2013, even my Galaxy Note 2 has 10gb of internal memory. Also, as I stated any well written C# IO library can into buffer any n-bytes thus total memory consumption lies well below your stated 256mb.

No it doesn't, it got 1 GB of real RAM, the rest is internal USB attached flash memory for storage.

I do all that in C#, so please do you care to enlighten me what edge C has over C#? I argue that it has ZERO advantage, none, nil except for very niche performance critical code..., to the contrary it takes you longer to whip up code snippets than it would take me to write equally efficient code in C#.

I'm not saying everyone should develop in C, just that it is stupid to say that C should not be used to do this or do that. C is a high-level language that can be used for everything, develop large ERP systems, web services, etc. Develop in what ever language you like. Some languages are slower that others, that is just a cost you will pay.

Your bus OOP blurb makea zero sense. You cannot bypass bus capacity limitation with C!!! Nor with any other OOP language.

More bloated data structures consumes more bus bandwidth and cache space, regardless of language.

If you do not parallelize your web request code in C then I can show you how my C# version will run circles around your code. Care to code up a simple webcrawler in C and compare results?

Ofcouse we parallelize our code in C, we have excellent support for parallelization. Clik, OpenMP, UPC, MPI and Posix Threads which are more efficient than the threading support you got in other languages. These tools where born and developed in the supercomputing world at national DoE/DoD laboratories, NASA and leading US university's. So of cause they outshine what you got in C# or Java.

Please do not participate in this discussion if you do not really know what you are talking about.

You are clearly the one who are lacking deep knowledge and do not know what you are talking about, spreading untrue blurbs in this thread.

On the popularity of C:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 

[vicirek]

Quote from misaki:

I can understand if this was C# vs Java, but why are we having a language war between C++ and C#?

There are several nice features about C++, e.g. resource management vs C# IDisposable, templates vs C# generics, compiler support and platform neutrality; almost everything has C++ bindings, much cleaner way to access a wide range of tools as opposed to .NET interoperability and C# marshaling. vicirek's point has some credit - it boils down to the fact that 'faster' aspects of the .NET framework class library simply mean better, more heavily-optimized implementations than the C++ standard library (e.g. System.IO).

Then I'd much rather build GUIs with C# than C++. C# .NET development is a much more centralized experience, since there's one really, really good IDE and a few pariah IDEs mostly for Mono development.

Finally, there's always variability in user experiences - I can probably write a production implementation in Fortran 90 faster than C#, but that doesn't mean anything about the two languages besides give possible hints of my age and working background.

Moral of the story: (1) C# vs C++ for your financial applications is usually a business cost-benefit decision; (2) you generally speak of faster implementations, not faster languages. (3) Good programmers are usually indifferent to the language choice, as I've said in page 4. So if you need to ask what language you are using, or find yourself participating in language wars, chances are that you're better off using the one you're most familiar with.

Now can we go back on topic and I hear more about what you guys are doing with C?

Misaki please do not be discouraged by some comments here. Your comments are very informative and to the point. What you read between your cited comment and this post is just reiteration of the same. People post rude comments but you can still learn from them even if they miss the point like many of the hft_xx guy posts.

 

[hftvol]

* you are saying as of today C is more popular than C#? You gotta be kidding me and yourself. Sorry but I can hardly take you serious with such comment.

* "(edit: Nevermind, I don't see any point in participating in this thread any further.)" -> Then why are you asking for more discussion on this very point? Leave the thread and move on, simple as that. But you come across as being confused if you ask on one hand to further discuss the applications in which C is used and then 2 posts down say you are done ;-)

Quote from misaki:

I think you're mistaking me for another poster (I'm not the threadstarter?) - if you read my quoted text, I did write in favor of System.IO over iostream, and I did write in favor of high-level programming very early on in this thread.



Popularity: That's untrue. Anecdotal evidence such as what you have read on SO is a very unscientific means to determine a language's popularity. If you want to go this route, at least refer to the TIOBE index, which is widely-cited and has a much more quantitative methodology, and in which C and C++ both rank above C# as of 03/2013.

(edit: Nevermind, I don't see any point in participating in this thread any further.)

 

[hftvol]

fair point re the Galaxy Note, I stand corrected. However, it still remains a fact that C# as well as any other high level language can easily perform high performance I/O with a fraction of your stated 256mb.

Again, and I state this a last time because I feel I am repeating myself: Anyone can write high performance I/O code in C# that is capped only by bus limitations. You do not need C for that.

Re your C multi threaded applications and cited support of argument: Many applications that were developed or used by Nasa or as part of other super computing environments are not applicable to modern applications outside their realm. Look at Berkeley DB or HDF5. I have never seen a library such as HDF5 that is so clumsy to work with, has so little support for higher level languages and REALLY DOES NOT PERFORM ALL THAT FAST AS CLAIMED. My own binary data store in C# outshines HDF5 in EVERY category, whether you run HDF5 in Linux or Windows, using their C, C++, Python, or whatever other library. So, just because a certain library was developed or used by Nasa or anyone else does not mean a thing.

Your cited popularity index does not disclose at all how they derive their ratings other than "we use Google to do it" LOL. Get real dude, Objective C more popular than C#? Please, just because some guys write iPhone Apps does not mean you can ignore the hundreds of thousands of developers that peruse .Net every single day to write applications that are much wider reaching than iphone apps. I am done on this discussion because I really do not have an interest wasting my time on people who seriously believe objective C is more widely used than C# or .Net in general. Shocking!!!

Quote from bln:

No it doesn't, it got 1 GB of real RAM, the rest is internal USB attached flash memory for storage.



I'm not saying everyone should develop in C, just that it is stupid to say that C should not be used to do this or do that. C is a high-level language that can be used for everything, develop large ERP systems, web services, etc. Develop in what ever language you like. Some languages are slower that others, that is just a cost you will pay.



More bloated data structures consumes more bus bandwidth and cache space, regardless of language.



Ofcouse we parallelize our code in C, we have excellent support for parallelization. Clik, OpenMP, UPC, MPI and Posix Threads which are more efficient than the threading support you got in other languages. These tools where born and developed in the supercomputing world at national DoE/DoD laboratories, NASA and leading US university's. So of cause they outshine what you got in C# or Java.



You are clearly the one who are lacking deep knowledge and do not know what you are talking about, spreading untrue blurbs in this thread.

On the popularity of C:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

 

[vicirek]

Quote from hftvol:

* you are saying as of today C is more popular than C#? You gotta be kidding me and yourself. Sorry but I can hardly take you serious with such comment.

Previous posters use index based on worldwide usage of languages. Not every company or programmer (worldwide again) wants to be dependent on Microsoft compiler or can afford one (maybe there are some restrictions on export licenses?). In addition despite multi language versions and documentation some may prefer to stay with what they already know.

There is another issue. Microsoft wants to sell new versions. This may force to refactor software every 2 years with the release of new framework and also it creates some issues with deployment and program maintenance (it works on my development computer situation)

Another issue for some is Microsoft approach to new and old technologies. They just suddenly abandon some and create new and that confuses people because they wander if it is worth the investment.

But I agree, .Net is best development environment and produces good and fast code and is easy to use once you stay current and are used to Microsoft sense of humor.