C vs. C++

Quote from axeman:

I have to disagree with python.

Its a pretty nice language, and I have done significant work in it.

However, python has had its chance and simply has not,
and probably will not be embraced by the industry
as much as java and C#, EVEN IF IT DESERVES TO BE.

10 years from now, I would seriously doubt that python
will have taken a lead over java and C#.

Futher, to say that C# and java have not improved on C++
is simply wrong. Ask any C++ guy who has moved over
to the newer language and he will probably tell you thats its
easier and more productive.

Simply having garbage collection is HUGE. That alone cuts
down development and maintenance costs by large factors.

Your way off base here.

Ive programmed in probably 15+ languages and have
designed and implemented 3 of my own for very custom projects.

java and C# are significant steps above C++ and python
is a nice language, that will probably never compete with them.

That is my OPINION based on over 2 decades of programming
and industry experience.


peace

axeman
More...

Hi axeman,

You can disagree with a person but you cannot "disagree with python", as you cannot "disagree with Java", disagree with "C#", etc, etc.... It simply doesn't mean anything.

Whom are you referring to on this thread saying: "Further, to say that C# and java have not improved on C++ is simply wrong"? What is true I believe is that at present Java and C# are not serious competitors of C++ for major projects. Will they become so in the future? The Java orgy is practically over. C#? Too early to tell. The thing is too new to say anything at all about it. Your opinion about Python as having had its chance: you don't explain where you got this from and I simply don't see it that way! If you don't like it, leave it. In my opinion you learned absolutely nothing from it.

As to your predictions on what will be 10 years from now in software, I don't think this is very smart. In spite of your 20 years of experience, you certainly don't seem to have heard about big great darling PL/1!

You also stated: "Ask any C++ guy who has moved over to the newer language and he will probably tell you thats its easier and more productive." In my experience I learned that "asking any guy ... [who] will probably tell you" doesn't carry much weight in software development.

Axeman, stay happily with your C# and Java for the next 20 years. I am not going to argue with you. I said in the previous post what I think about this. I don't make any predictions whatsoever. I got much wiser from looking at past experience.

Good luck,

nononsense
 
I wasnt disagreeing with python the language, but python
as a CHOICE of lanuage in the current business environment.

Whom are you referring to on this thread saying: "Further, to say that C# and java have not improved on C++ is simply wrong"?

Previously you said:

" Comparing Java and C# against C and C++ I must say that I cannot really see any improvement in looking at the way this changed the length of code or decreased the effort to write something. "


This is simply not true. java and C# are both easier to
develop in than C++.





LATER YOU SAID: I don't make any predictions whatsoever. I got much wiser from looking at past experience.

Here you are being dishonest.
Previously you said, and I quote:

I will go on record: in 50 years people will still know about Cobol, Fortran, C or C++ and probably about Python.


Sounds like a prediction to me :)

Personally, I go with the flow. Thats why Ive been through
so many languages. Java and C++ currently still hold the
language market, C# is the new runner, and C++ is the old horse which
will probably always be used for OS's and the lower level stuff.


I just did a search on dice.com for programming jobs:

Java - 4539 matches
C++ - 3011 matches
C# - 682 matches
PYTHON - 92 matches

Sounds like you have technology religion.
Ill let the objective numbers speak for themselves.


peace

axeman



Quote from nononsense:



Hi axeman,

You can disagree with a person but you cannot "disagree with python", as you cannot "disagree with Java", disagree with "C#", etc, etc.... It simply doesn't mean anything.

Whom are you referring to on this thread saying: "Further, to say that C# and java have not improved on C++ is simply wrong"? What is true I believe is that at present Java and C# are not serious competitors of C++ for major projects. Will they become so in the future? The Java orgy is practically over. C#? Too early to tell. The thing is too new to say anything at all about it. Your opinion about Python as having had its chance: you don't explain where you got this from and I simply don't see it that way! If you don't like it, leave it. In my opinion you learned absolutely nothing from it.

As to your predictions on what will be 10 years from now in software, I don't think this is very smart. In spite of your 20 years of experience, you certainly don't seem to have heard about big great darling PL/1!

You also stated: "Ask any C++ guy who has moved over to the newer language and he will probably tell you thats its easier and more productive." In my experience I learned that "asking any guy ... [who] will probably tell you" doesn't carry much weight in software development.

Axeman, stay happily with your C# and Java for the next 20 years. I am not going to argue with you. I said in the previous post what I think about this. I don't make any predictions whatsoever. I got much wiser from looking at past experience.

Good luck,

nononsense
More...
 
Quote from axeman:


java and C# are significant steps above C++ and python
is a nice language, that will probably never compete with them.
More...

I am pretty much inline with your opinion axeman. I have pretty extensive experience in Java, C++, and Python in high-performance and DB tasks and I don't understand where nononsense is coming from on this. They are all actually very useful languages, but there's a time and place for every tool.
 
Yes.

And I can understand his frustration.


Personally.... java, C# and C++ are NOT my favorite languages.
But UNFORTUNATELY, the market almost NEVER chooses
the best TECHNOLOGY.

The big boys running the show push the technology.

Its really a shame. I really liked python. But I go where
the market is.


peace

axeman


Quote from corvus:



I am pretty much inline with your opinion axeman. I have pretty extensive experience in Java, C++, and Python in high-performance and DB tasks and I don't understand where nononsense is coming from on this. They are all actually very useful languages, but there's a time and place for every tool.
More...
 
Axeman,

(1) I said:
" Comparing Java and C# against C and C++ I must say that I cannot really see any improvement in looking at the way this changed the length of code or decreased the effort to write something."

The length of the code to implement a task has since machine language always been am important criterion. C# and Java did not improve much at all. Python did. Clarity of syntax is another criterion - same story. That's all I said.
It would be stupid to maintain that people did not learn anything since the times of C and C++!

(2) I said:
"I will go on record: in 50 years people will still know about Cobol, Fortran, C or C++ and probably about Python." If you want to call this my prediction over what will happen over the next 5, 10, 20 or 50 years, be happy, you got me! I merily illustrated the fact that like biggie PL/1 certain languages disappear overnight. Any sensible person will hesitate to doubt my proposition that 50 years from now people will still remember Cobol and Fortran; C an C++, the language of Unix and WindowsNT! I was very careful talking about Python. C#, Java, your guess.

Keep happily struggling with your C# fellows, I'll run with Python.

nononsense
 
Quote from corvus:



I am pretty much inline with your opinion axeman. I have pretty extensive experience in Java, C++, and Python in high-performance and DB tasks and I don't understand where nononsense is coming from on this. They are all actually very useful languages, but there's a time and place for every tool.
More...

Quote from corvus:



I get the feeling that LongShot and nononsense may be related.
More...

Hey dude,

It seems you easily jump to rather funny conclusions. This is dangerous for a software guy! I hope your high-performance DB tasks didn't get at you! If you run into LongShot don't forget to ask him!

nononsense
 
You still need to be honest here.

YOU SAID: I must say that I cannot really see any improvement in looking at the way this changed the length of code or decreased the effort to write something."

There are two parts to this sentence:

Part 1) the way this changed the length of code
Part 2) OR decreased the effort to write something

It in fact decreased the effort.


"Keep happily struggling with your C# fellows, I'll run with Python."


Im not struggling at all. I dont code in C#, and I dont
find any of these languages to be a struggle with the slight exception
of C++ which I detest.

Run with python if you wish, but languages like C and C++
stand the test of time because of the massive industry
support behind them and their widespread use.

All things which python does not have. Historical
computer industry patterns would lead me to believe
that python is more likely to die out as a language before
java and C# do. In fact..... some would say its already a niche language.

I on the other hand, will run with whatever language there is a market for.
Java is currently #1. Python takes last place
in this group. Even BASIC gets 2398 matches on dice.

peace

axeman






Quote from nononsense:

Axeman,

(1) I said:
" Comparing Java and C# against C and C++ I must say that I cannot really see any improvement in looking at the way this changed the length of code or decreased the effort to write something."

The length of the code to implement a task has since machine language always been am important criterion. C# and Java did not improve much at all. Python did. Clarity of syntax is another criterion - same story. That's all I said.
It would be stupid to maintain that people did not learn anything since the times of C and C++!

(2) I said:
"I will go on record: in 50 years people will still know about Cobol, Fortran, C or C++ and probably about Python." If you want to call this my prediction over what will happen over the next 5, 10, 20 or 50 years, be happy, you got me! I merily illustrated the fact that like biggie PL/1 certain languages disappear overnight. Any sensible person will hesitate to doubt my proposition that 50 years from now people will still remember Cobol and Fortran; C an C++, the language of Unix and WindowsNT! I was very careful talking about Python. C#, Java, your guess.

Keep happily struggling with your C# fellows, I'll run with Python.

nononsense
More...
 
I dont think nononsense is longshot.

He is much brighter. Just passionate about his languages
like I was when I was a younger techie :D

peace

axeman
 
Quote from nononsense:

....
Keep happily struggling with your C# fellows, I'll run with Python.

nononsense
More...

Pythons nice but not a single customer has demanded we work in this language/environment. For software products - as opposed to projects - the market still revolves around C++, C, and Java. Most of the project based work is asked for in Java and C++ and C and VB and its variants with little demand for c#.

As has been stated many many times before, there is no "best" programming language or environment. The market is fickle with respect to languages and even tools. It all really depends upon which vendor is yelling the most and cutting the best deals to their customers and as this behaviour waxes and wanes so will the popularity of particular languages, compilers, framewworks etc. Keep in mind that at some point there is so much code written in particular language/environment that it becomes nearly impossible for it to go away: PL1 and ADA are still around but very few people make their livings with these nowadays .....
 
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