Bush's Policy Change Angers Palestinians

[FredBloggs]

Well, weve been round the block several times on this one over tha last two days.

It seems pro Israeli's refuse to accept their wrong doing (whats new).

It seems pro Palestinian's refuse to accept any reason to back down while their land is being invaded.

Lets get back to basics. I have one question:

WHY DID ISRAEL DECIDE IT WAS NECESSARY TO GO BEYOND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR TERRITORY IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt this the reason for all this blood shed?

Is the argument of 'Its our land because the holy book says so' valid?

Does Isreal really want to start another holocaust? God knows we dont want that to happen, but their stubbornness seems to be driving the world against them - as can be seen from the majority anti-Israeli stance on the majority of the posts, and the rise of unfortunate anti-semitism around in the world at the moment. Lets face it, the time is long gone to point blame. Who cares about who is right or wrong. All we must do is stop another holocaust and the blood shed. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Israel doesnt seem to realize this. Will there be any pity for them when the inevitable happens if they continue with their short sighted stubbornness. Isn't a bit of filthy desert woth giving up to avoid that?

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from bmwm5:

Thank you for your response I Missed Boat.

Re your first paragraph:
The UN may be corrupt, I don't know. But you do realize that it is not only the UN condeming the actions of Israel. It is almost everybody but the US; e.g. Russia and EU. Also, your argument of "despite the millions that have been masacred" is of the point; The subject of this thread us the "Bush's Policy Change...".
And as far as the occupation not being illegal - I think Israel is the only country in the world the calls the territories "disputed" and not "occupied".

You have not addressed my questions:
1) What should the Palestinians do to fight back the illegal occupation? (If your answer is going to be: dismantle the terrorist network, that may not be possible at this point given that the security apparatus, the police, etc was destroyed a few years ago).
2) Israel is entitled to build the security wall for its protection; but why does it not use its own land for that purpose?

I addressed your first point multiple times previously. Between their domestic islamic populations, the heavy political influence of oil money, the difference in influence due to population (one billion Muslims vs around 15 million Jews), and biggotry. That is why Russia (which oppressed Jews for centuries, so its funny you mention them), EU, etc regularly backs the Arabs. Also keep in mind that appealing to the mass population (which in history have regularly been wrong) is a fallacy, because it actually proves nothing!

As far as your referring to the subject of the thread, this has absolutely nothing to do with my refuting the legitimacy of the corrupt UN on many issues when you in fact tout their resolutions. So what is your point?? Did you miss mine? If you use evidence that I find faulty, I ought to and will challenge it.

As far as your describing the use of terms for the occupation, that is a moot point that should've been addressed in the earlier part of your paragraph (ie why EU, Russia, etc support Arabs), since it is obviously related to the different way the situations are viewed. And for that reason, I addressed it in the paragraph above.

With regard to what the "Palestinians" should do to fight terrorism, you point out that the PA's security apparatus was "weakened." Well guess what, the PA was not only not fighting terrorism this whole time, it is well documented that they were helping create, support, arm and finance it! Arafat still has a lot of money, people and clout, and if he wanted to take strong actions, he could.

As far as why Israel does not simply use "its own land" for the wall, I addressed this. First, the land you consider to be not Israel's is largely in dispute. But that aside, Israel needs buffer zones, since it is dealing with a very large, violent, radicalized population that grows at ridiculous rates. They have offered this territory in return for peace and got lies and terrorism in return. When enemies attack, why they should they automatically get land back when they lose. That means there is nothing to lose for the attackers. Settlements can be taken down, but until there is true interest in peace among "Palestinians," Israel needs this area for a buffer zone, and it more than deserves to be capable of protecting itself after being attacked multiple times. Once again, not sure what you don't understand. You aren't addressing my specific responses, and you're calling irrelevant something that is very relevant (the legitimacy of some UN resolutions, when you refer to them as proof for your argument).

 

[bmwm5]

Thank you for you response.

Your first paraghraph clearly expresses your very cynical view of the world. I am cynical too, but boy! I don't come anywhere close to you. Also, Russia also invaded Afghanistan, so don't rush so quickly into this "oppression of Jews" stuff. As to the EU regularly backing Arabs; have you at least considered that they may be responding to what goes on in the region? Also, your responses imply that Israel has the monopolly on the truth and on what is right. Do you respect no other country, no world body, not even International Law?

As to the other paragraphs, they amount to nothing more that twisting words and facts and fancy command of language; so I will not respond to them.

And finally, If you re-read my initial post in this thread you will see that my view is rather balanced; there are points in which I agree with Israel and there are points where I don't. So try not to beat me down with your answers.

On the side: I'm 38 years old, well educated computer scientist, non-religious, living in the US. What about you?

Quote from I Missed Boat:

I addressed your first point multiple times previously. Between their domestic islamic populations, the heavy political influence of oil money, the difference in influence due to population (one billion Muslims vs around 15 million Jews), and biggotry. That is why Russia (which oppressed Jews for centuries, so its funny you mention them), EU, etc regularly backs the Arabs. Also keep in mind that appealing to the mass population (which in history have regularly been wrong) is a fallacy, because it actually proves nothing!

As far as your referring to the subject of the thread, this has absolutely nothing to do with my refuting the legitimacy of the corrupt UN on many issues when you in fact tout their resolutions. So what is your point?? Did you miss mine? If you use evidence that I find faulty, I ought to and will challenge it.

As far as your describing the use of terms for the occupation, that is a moot point that should've been addressed in the earlier part of your paragraph (ie why EU, Russia, etc support Arabs), since it is obviously related to the different way the situations are viewed. And for that reason, I addressed it in the paragraph above.

With regard to what the "Palestinians" should do to fight terrorism, you point out that the PA's security apparatus was "weakened." Well guess what, the PA was not only not fighting terrorism this whole time, it is well documented that they were helping create, support, arm and finance it! Arafat still has a lot of money, people and clout, and if he wanted to take strong actions, he could.

As far as why Israel does not simply use "its own land" for the wall, I addressed this. First, the land you consider to be not Israel's is largely in dispute. But that aside, Israel needs buffer zones, since it is dealing with a very large, violent, radicalized population that grows at ridiculous rates. They have offered this territory in return for peace and got lies and terrorism in return. When enemies attack, why they should they automatically get land back when they lose. That means there is nothing to lose for the attackers. Settlements can be taken down, but until there is true interest in peace among "Palestinians," Israel needs this area for a buffer zone, and it more than deserves to be capable of protecting itself after being attacked multiple times. Once again, not sure what you don't understand. You aren't addressing my specific responses, and you're calling irrelevant something that is very relevant (the legitimacy of some UN resolutions, when you refer to them as proof for your argument).

 

[Copernicus]

Quote from I Missed Boat:

I'll try to explain it to you again. In economics it would be described as a FIXED COST (which, depending on the size of the terriroty, among other things, would also involve additional VARIABLE COSTS). IT TAKES A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY AND TECHNOLOGY TO DEFEND ANY TERRITORY, REGARDLESS OF THE POPULATION. If China comes a knocking, a country has to have the means to defend itself, whether that country is Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Israel or Canada.

Is everything in terms of defense and war to you?
aid to egypt is humanitarian, unlike that to israel which is used for arms.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from FredBloggs:



Lets get back to basics. I have one question:

WHY DID ISRAEL DECIDE IT WAS NECESSARY TO GO BEYOND THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR TERRITORY IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Asked and answered. Because they were attacked multiple times, attackers risk losing something when they attack, and Israel needs a buffer zone since it has been attacked multiple times and lives surrounded by hostile states and people who, particularly in the case of the "Palestinians," won't negotiate peace in good faith. Perhaps eventually you'll actually address this response (made by me and others), instead of just repeating these tired comments.

Quote from FredBloggs:



Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt this the reason for all this blood shed?

Is the argument of 'Its our land because the holy book says so' valid?

No, it is not the reason for the blood shed, since Israel offered the land back for peace and got lies and terrorism in return.

The arguments go beyond the fact that Israel belonged to Jews until the Romans forced them out. First, there were some Jews who remained in this area, as with the rest of the Middle East, throughout this time. Second, there was a large migration of Jews back to this area in the 1800s (and Jews comprised the largest group of Jerusalem in the 1800s). This land was mostly barren and uninhabited at that time. Third, the current state of Israel, which is still very tiny, is a whopping three times bigger than the original partition. And despite the fact that "Palestinians" were encouraged to leave by Arab states, Israel took in 500,000 Arab Jewish refugees, who were being forced out or were fleeing massacres and terrible persecution. Half a million "refugees" out, half a million refugees in. Those Muslims who stayed are full citizens, with full political representation (which is more than they have in the good majority of Arab states).

Quote from FredBloggs:



Does Isreal really want to start another holocaust? God knows we dont want that to happen, but their stubbornness seems to be driving the world against them - as can be seen from the majority anti-Israeli stance on the majority of the posts, and the rise of unfortunate anti-semitism around in the world at the moment. Lets face it, the time is long gone to point blame. Who cares about who is right or wrong. All we must do is stop another holocaust and the blood shed. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Israel doesnt seem to realize this. Will there be any pity for them when the inevitable happens if they continue with their short sighted stubbornness. Isn't a bit of filthy desert woth giving up to avoid that?

Did you count the posts. I don't think the majority of posts here were anti-Israel. And even so, once again, appealing to the mass is a fallacy. What's more, the world has never needed any reason to hate, demonize, persecute and hold double standards towards Jews. This is why the old blood libels are still taught in the actual text books in many Arab countries. But it is clear from your previous posts where you are coming from yourself. You are a bigot, which is why you are going to keep repeating the same tired arguments, complete with stupid fallacies, and occasional blatant bigoted remarks and accusations mixed in.

That is why you used the absurd "God's chosen people" argument as a reason why Jews have been persecuted and suggest that they deserve it. Nevermind that every religion claims, in some way, that it is "chosen" or that it is "right." In fact, the most devout Jews believe that everyone can lead a righteous life and go to heaven, Jew or Gentile, while many Christians and Muslims believe that only those Christians and Muslims who see things exactly as they do will be accepted by God and go to heaven. In the case of Muslim extremists, of course, they believe that God actually wants them to kill all non-believers (who represent the great Satan).

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

Is everything in terms of defense and war to you?
aid to egypt is humanitarian, unlike that to israel which is used for arms.

Why do you keep talking out of your ass. First Egpyt only got millions in aid, and now its humanitarian aid. As a matter of fact, the majority of the US aid going to Egypt (around $2billion a year) is used for their military.

 

[Turok]

Quote from I Missed Boat:

Why do you keep talking out of your ass. First Egpyt only got millions in aid, and now its humanitarian aid. As a matter of fact, the majority of aid that goes to Egypt is used for their military.

I was going to point that out yestday and just didn't get time. They get shiny new fighters and all kinds of other good stuff from us.

JB

 

[SethArb]

enough already with politics

if I want to read this stuff ... I can go to CNN , JPOST ,

NYTimes etc ....

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from bmwm5:

Thank you for you response.

Your first paragraph clearly expresses your very cynical view of the world. I am cynical too, but boy! I don't come anywhere close to you. Also, Russia also invaded Afghanistan, so don't rush so quickly into this "oppression of Jews" stuff. As to the EU regularly backing Arabs; have you at least considered that they may be responding to what goes on in the region? Also, your responses imply that Israel has the monopolly on the truth and on what is right. Do you respect no other country, no world body, not even International Law?

Referring to Russia invading Afghanistan is completely irrelevant. I'm saying that Russia persecuted Russian Jews for centuries. In much of that time, Jews weren't even allowed citizenship. So I'm not rushing to "oppression of Jews" stuff. You ask why Russia is not friendly to Israel, and aside from their interest in oil and placating their own large Muslim population, it is funny you would refer to a country that until very recently heavily persecuted its own Jews. Also, you are stretching things mightily when you claim that I was implying Israel has a monopoly on truth and right. Politics is politics, and are you suggesting that most countries don't do what is in their national interest? Backing Arabs is, for the most part, in the interests of most governments for the political reasons previously described. And are you suggesting that anti-semitism doesn't and hasn't existed? In Europe the hatred, lies and bigotry of Jews went well beyond the Nazis. Majorities of people in Eastern Europe were eager to kill and support the Nazis insofar as their cleansing of the Jews. Recent polls in Austria even show that a majority of Austrians hate Jews and believe, like so many Arabs, the most extreme lies about them. And this bigotry exists in many places where there are no Jews are hardly any Jews. So when a politicized and corrupt world body holds more special sessions on Israel than any other country, investigates Israel more than any other country, holds Israel to double standards, and allows conferences on racism and human rights to be hijacked and made exclusively about Israel, all the while so many millions have died around the world in mass murders and ethnic cleansings, and slavery persists to this day, please don't ask me why Israel doesn't always value the UN when it worries about its survival.

Quote from bmwm5:


As to the other paragraphs, they amount to nothing more that twisting words and facts and fancy command of language; so I will not respond to them.

Wow, thank you. You're the first person who suggested I have a great command of the language. Darkhorse must be laughing right now!
But please do describe how I twisted words and facts, at least with one or two examples. Don't just say its so. I absolutely contend that I never twisted any words or facts!

Quote from bmwm5:


And finally, If you re-read my initial post in this thread you will see that my view is rather balanced; there are points in which I agree with Israel and there are points where I don't. So try not to beat me down with your answers.

Sorry if I did this, and I never accused you of being a bigot or particularly harsh in your views (unlike some others here who were very clear in this manner). But I did not understand why you were calling my point irrelevant when I addressed one of your sources for proof (UN), and I did not understand why you were repeating yourself and not addressing my responses. I apologize if I offended!

 

[FredBloggs]

Boat - There we go. Typical. You are the personification of what I was talking about.

Rather than try and offer some solution in a positive light and look towards the future, you INSIST on digging in and defending Israel, with lame liberal excuses about how Israel has done no wrong, Israel is the innocent party, crap crap, and more crap. You have very selective comprehension.

It is EXACTLY this attitude that will be the end of the human race.

And you call me a bigot!

Lets face it, the world is becoming more democratic day by day. I've got news for you dude, the world aint with Israel. Wake up, smell the coffee, accept Israel is WRONG and IGNORANT and suggest what YOU think the solution should be (I'll give you a clue - it isn't killing more Palestinians).

Can you also stop bleating on about Jews. I'm tiered of it. I don't really have any beef against Jews, its the Israeli Govt I cant stand. Yet another example of how your type twist everything in order to obtain some kind of moral high ground that the world is quickly becoming sick of.

Your play is tiered. The game will soon be up. People can see through it now because weve all heard it a million times.

End of.