Bush's Policy Change Angers Palestinians

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

lets ask sharon, he seems to be in control of the world

At least now you spelled out where you are coming from. This is exactly why many people who oppose Israel are called out for the biggots they are. Not because everyone opposed to Israel MUST be a biggot (many are just unaware of the history and true facts, and are confused by all the Saudi funded propaganda and influence, along with the news coverage of ignorant and/or biggots). Its because so many biggots now a days use Israel as their means to spread their biggotry.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

if this is true, then for the third time how come other western countries dont have a problem with terrorists, only usa and israel?

Its been answered each time. Because the US is the biggest, the US the most powerful, the US is the most symbolic, and because more than any other country, the US not only PRACTICES freedom and democracy, but the US also PROMOTES it around the world.

Keep in mind also, Europe has been the subject of many terrorist attempts. In fact, before 9/11, terrorists had plotted to fly planes into the Eiffel Tower, among other targets. Their intelligence was simply more organized and competent at the time, and they put a stop to it. And wasn't the UN compound in Iraq itself bombed?? Oh, and don't forget that these extremists actually also target the most moderate, usually secular, muslim governments.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

how are the arabs going to overrun israel? israel has nukes and far superior military if they wanted they could take take of the problem very quickly. dont get me wrong i am not supporting either side, i am well aware that most of palestinians are scumbags and even fellow arab countries dont want any more of them in their jails.
my point is why does the US so blatantly support Israel?
alllow them to clean up their own backyard and focus on our land.

Actually, the US did not support Israel in its early days, and the US actually provided weapons for many of Israel's biggest enemies in the past (so if anything, the US has merely help keep a balance of power, and that was after Israel had already won its initial war). But the only question that's really been asked is, why do you focus on Israel and not countries like Egypt that get almost as much?

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Israel should not be given any special favors or treatment.

There is this "favored" status in which we allow them to get away with shit that in many cases is unreasonable.

Their history, or the history of the Jews is as inconsequential as the history of the African Americans, or the American Indians, yet they play upon the holocaust as if it grants them a lifetime exemption from reasonable behavior.

Any type of decision making that is based in Biblical interpretation as it relates to politics is wrong.

I have no attachment to either the state of Israel or the state of Palestine.

They both are wrong in their behavior, and we should not support either side when they act like morons.

And this couldn't be farther from the truth. Israel has been more restrained than any other country in its situation. Indeed, other countries (so easy to name scores of them), when confronted by such threats, just wipe out whole towns. Israel regularly sends soldiers in to fight close combat rather than level whole neighborhoods (yes, they sometimes will bomb a street corner to get a group of terrorists, but not a whole neighborhood, let alone city). Yet, Israel is held to a ridiculous double standard compared to anyone else.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from electron:

And it's the same country that supports dictators in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan accused by international watchdogs of tortures on political opponents. Guess why it is so? Answer: The US has military bases in these countries. Can you spell 'Hypocrisy'? It does not spell the same as 'America' but there is no difference in meaning. And BTW, no humanitarian action gives you the right to wage wars. And no, without the freedom movements in the former Soviet block, most notably the Solidarity movement in Poland, you would not have had the Berlin Wall demise. You take too much credit for all that. The US did not succeed in Vietnam, it would not have succeeded with the former Soviet block if it were not for internal freedom movements and that's precisely the reason why it will not succeed in Iraq. Freedom eventually triumphs. Always.

The US has hijacked the notion of freedom for its political purposes just as Israel and Zionists have hijacked the notion of Holocaust. Freedom is possible without America, just as Holocaust has happened to other nations even during WWII. Some of these nations actually put out a good fight against Nazis which is probably the main reason why they do not suffer from the victim syndrom now and did not make their own Holocausts into a religion.

Freedom-yes, American and Israeli hypocrisy-no!

WHO put up a good fight against the Nazis, other than Russia, England an dthe US??

And who else was suffering from a "holocaust" during WWII? The only other mass murders that were going on were those by Stalin (political killings, not an ethnic or religious cleansing that threatens the ability of a group to even live almost anywhere without being turned on and killed or expelled periodically), and those committed by the Japanese in Korea and China (at a relatively small scale compared to the Nazis and Stalin).

And how exactly did Jews hijack the notion of the holocaust, which is derived from the Greek and describes a great fire. More specifically, it means a "burnt offering", which is what happened to Jews, (they were sent to ovens).

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Copernicus:

egypt lies at the intersection of europe asia and africa.
together with turkey they are by far the most strategically important countries.

aid to egypt is not for its military, what are u talking about with defending? they have 80 million people most of them living in poverty.

I'll try to explain it to you again. In economics it would be described as a FIXED COST (which, depending on the size of the terriroty, among other things, would also involve additional VARIABLE COSTS). IT TAKES A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY AND TECHNOLOGY TO DEFEND ANY TERRITORY, REGARDLESS OF THE POPULATION. If China comes a knocking, a country has to have the means to defend itself, whether that country is Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Israel or Canada.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from Mr Subliminal:

This is what your sane electron said about the Holocaust in another post :

Quote from electron:


By the same token, Jews, who were 'supposedly' killed en masse during the WWII Holocaust should really thank Nazis for this as this gave rise to a tremendous Holocaust industry.

[/B]

Quote from Mr Subliminal:
I would not hesitate to put a bullet through that scumbag's head. Supposedly, of course. [/B]

Exactly my point earlier. While some people, for various reasons (usually a lack of understanding) oppose Israel and are not bigots, many (most probably) use Israel as a means to express their bigotry.

 

[I Missed Boat]

Quote from bmwm5:

I am against Palestinians blowing themselves up and killing many innocent civilians in the process. They will not achieve anything positive by doing so. I doubt though that at this point they actually expect to achieve anything; I think their actions may be the result of absolute desperation and loss of desire to live.

I think Arafat is a grumpy, old, useless man who should have been removed from his position long time ago and replaced by someone less emotional and more rational and pragmatic.

I have one question for all the pro-Israeli contributors to this thread: What should the Palestinians do to fight back the illegal occupation?

International law, the UN, countless UN resolutions calling for Israel to stop the building of settlements, most Western countries denouncing Israeli actions is not stopping Israel from doing as it pleases. Why did Israel continue to build the settlements when even the US sponsored roadmap called for them to be stopped? I guess because it can, because it is in the position of power. We, the US, give it the most sophisticated weaponry in the world to the tune of USD 2 Bil per year in addition to hefty <a href="http://go-advertising.com?go=loan" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: loan';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">loan</a> guarantees.

Further I think, Israel is entitled to build the security wall for its protection; but why does it not use its own land for that purpose.

I also think that Israel is entitled to worry about its neighbors acquiring nuclear weapons. But why is it ok for Israel to have them?

The denial of the right of return is a painful issue to the Palestinians, but I sympathize with Israel. The population growth rates of Arabs and Israelis are such that the Israel would not be able to remain a Jewish state if they allowed it.

Finally I think that Bush endorsing Israel to keep the 6 settlements in the West Bank sets a very dangerous precedent: "be our friend, preferably be located somewhere near the oil, occupy the piece of land that is not yours, build settlements, ignore the law for a while and in the end you'll be awarded to keep it, because the world will just have to 'recognize the new realities on the ground and in the region'".

Although your references to the UN are not very relevant, given the UN's clear corrupt and biased track record (seen in the ridiculous hijacked conferences, and the fact that Israel is the most investigated country and the subject of the most special sessions in the world by the UN, despite the millions who have been massacred and enslaved around the world), you have a reasonable question about the settlements. And the occupation is anything but illegal. Israel seized it after being attacked, and they tried to give Gaza back to Egypt when they gave Egypt back teh other, oil rich lands, but Egypt didn't want it. Since then, Israel has tried to give it back to the Palestinians, along with tons of aid, and simply asked for peace in return. But with Arafat and a brainwashed mass to negotiate with, the end result was nothing but lies and terrorism.

As far as settlements, first keep in mind that settlements can be dismantled. With regard to the road map, the road map never started because the PA never clamped down on terrorism. Also, if a group of countries or peoples attacks another people (multiple times in this case), and each time they attach they lose a piece of land, what is their incentive to stop attacking if they know that they will automatically get the land back that they've lost. In other words, when countries or peoples decide to attack, there is a risk, and it is a total double standard to view this as heads the attackers win, tails the attacked loses. Israel originally was a mere 1/3 of its current, still tiny size.

Look at a map and scan the extremely vulnerable security situation Israel is in, both with other countries and with the occupied territories. This is a defacto buffer zone, very much needed until Israel can secure a peace agreement with those lands being occupied. Unfortunately, these are radicalized people, and peace seems very elusive.

Let me add one side note. You hit the nail on the head with regard to the "Palestinian" growth rates. At the time of the partition, around 500,000 "Palestinians" left their homes (due to the encouragement or coercion of Arab states, who later would do nothing to help these people). These people now make up around 3.5 million, some 50 plus years later. At the same time, however, Israel took in around 500,000 Arab Jewish refugees. The least the Arab states that massacred or oppressed these Jewish refugees could do is take in or help the "Palestinians" that they encouraged to leave. Half a million Arabs for half a million Arabs sounds pretty fair to me.

 

[damir00]

Quote from I Missed Boat:

And who else was suffering from a "holocaust" during WWII?

as many non-Jews as Jews died in concentration camps. no other individual group suffered the same level of damage - except possibly Romas - but collectively the overall numbers of non-Jews reduced to ashtray dust was staggering.

 

[bmwm5]

Thank you for your response I Missed Boat.

Re your first paragraph:
The UN may be corrupt, I don't know. But you do realize that it is not only the UN condeming the actions of Israel. It is almost everybody but the US; e.g. Russia and EU. Also, your argument of "despite the millions that have been masacred" is of the point; The subject of this thread is the "Bush's Policy Change...".
And as far as the occupation not being illegal - I think Israel is the only country in the world the calls the territories "disputed" and not "occupied".

You have not addressed my questions:
1) What should the Palestinians do to fight back the illegal occupation? (If your answer is going to be: dismantle the terrorist network, that may not be possible at this point given that the security apparatus, the police, etc was destroyed a few years ago).
2) Israel is entitled to build the security wall for its protection; but why does it not use its own land for that purpose?

Quote from I Missed Boat:

Although your references to the UN are not very relevant, given the UN's clear corrupt and biased track record (seen in the ridiculous hijacked conferences, and the fact that Israel is the most investigated country and the subject of the most special sessions in the world by the UN, despite the millions who have been massacred and enslaved around the world), you have a reasonable question about the settlements. And the occupation is anything but illegal. Israel seized it after being attacked, and they tried to give Gaza back to Egypt when they gave Egypt back teh other, oil rich lands, but Egypt didn't want it. Since then, Israel has tried to give it back to the Palestinians, along with tons of aid, and simply asked for peace in return. But with Arafat and a brainwashed mass to negotiate with, the end result was nothing but lies and terrorism.

As far as settlements, first keep in mind that settlements can be dismantled. With regard to the road map, the road map never started because the PA never clamped down on terrorism. Also, if a group of countries or peoples attacks another people (multiple times in this case), and each time they attach they lose a piece of land, what is their incentive to stop attacking if they know that they will automatically get the land back that they've lost. In other words, when countries or peoples decide to attack, there is a risk, and it is a total double standard to view this as heads the attackers win, tails the attacked loses. Israel originally was a mere 1/3 of its current, still tiny size.

Look at a map and scan the extremely vulnerable security situation Israel is in, both with other countries and with the occupied territories. This is a defacto buffer zone, very much needed until Israel can secure a peace agreement with those lands being occupied. Unfortunately, these are radicalized people, and peace seems very elusive.

Let me add one side note. You hit the nail on the head with regard to the "Palestinian" growth rates. At the time of the partition, around 500,000 "Palestinians" left their homes (due to the encouragement or coercion of Arab states, who later would do nothing to help these people). These people now make up around 3.5 million, some 50 plus years later. At the same time, however, Israel took in around 500,000 Arab Jewish refugees. The least the Arab states that massacred or oppressed these Jewish refugees could do is take in or help the "Palestinians" that they encouraged to leave. Half a million Arabs for half a million Arabs sounds pretty fair to me.