Bush refuses to answer questions about spying on Americans....

[tradenut]

Quote from Sam123:

Secret U.S. jails? Do you have a clue about the global propaganda war that is going on, or do you simply want to believe in all the things that make the U.S. look bad?

Propaganda? These are facts. Some of these jails have been proven to exist. One of them is in afghanistan where a German citizen was just realeased after 5 months of torture. This was admited by Rice herself.
Call it propaganda if you will and ignore it.
No one needs to make or want to make the US look bad. GWB has done it himself.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from dddooo:

What legal precedent? The article described several legal cases, none of them was IMO similar or applicable to current situation. Which specific legal precedent are you talking about?

What do you mean "not applicable to the current situation"?!? They are ALL applicable!

What about the President having the authority to order warrantless searches in order to gather intelligence on foreign threats don't you understand?

I am not asking for details of the operations, I am asking whether there is an independent and responsible organization monitoring the operation and making sure that the government is not abusing its power and not overstepping its bounds.

If you don't like how the Constitution is written, you are free to lobby your legislator to introduce an amendment.

If you don't like who the Attorney General is, you are free to scream for his resignation.

If you don't like the Supreme Court's decisions on this issue, you are free to complain to them.

If you don't like the ruling the federal appellate courts made on this issue, you are free to complain to them.

If you don't like the FISA Court of Review's finding that the President has inherent authority to order warrantless searches and that FISA cannot encroach on his authority, you are free to complain to them.

In this country is not a dictatorship and is based on checks and balances these questions are not just reasonable and responsible, they are necessary, expected and unavoidable.

Yes, this country is not a dictatorship.

Interesting that you use the term "reasonable."

Do you or do you not agree that monitoring Al Qaeda communications fits the definition of "reasonable" that is the basis for such monitoring?

 

[Rearden Metal]

Quote from hapaboy:


Yes it does. So if you are not exchanging phone calls or e-mails with Al queda, or your name doesn't pop up on one of their cell phones or computers, you have nothing to fear.

Ask yourself why any government agency at any level would wish to monitor you. We all are in far greater danger of being monitored in this way by a computer hacker than by any agency of government at any level.

Maybe if you're Ned Flanders, but a great number of the rest of us use *gasp* illegal drugs. 110 million Americans, aged 12 or over (45.8% of the US population aged 12 and over) report having used an illicit drug at least once in their lifetimes.

This victimless activity classifies us as 'criminals' and even terrorist supporters, according to TV ads financed by our tax dollars.

Still think we have nothing to fear? In 2004, U.S. law enforcement arrested 590,258 violent crime suspects, <b>and over three times as many</b> prohibition violators, including 684,319 people for the heinous crime of 'marijuana possession'.

Prohibition enforcement is clearly a far greater priority to the government than catching pedophiles, thieves, robbers...and yes, terrorists. By turning common, victimless activities into 'criminal offences', by imprisoning millions of political prisoners at our expense, I'd have to say that you're far more likely to become a terror victim by the hand of our own government, rather than any other 'official' terrorist organization.

 

[AltarEgo15]

Quote from hapaboy:

Of course Al Qaeda has to know they're being hunted by the US using all technology available. But publicizing it - and, whether you like it or not, it WAS a secret operation - cannot do any good.

If you were an Al Qaeda operative, wouldn't you be more careful with how you communicated with your assets internationally and in the US?

Bullshit like this, like calls for immediate withdrawal from Iraq, only serves to make them more cautious, which makes it more difficult to track them down.

But of course that's not important to the Left. What's important is making Bush look as bad as possible, national security be damned.

I still don't buy into your argument.

It lacks credibility because once again, I would suggest that you would have to be incredibly naive to think that the USA does not have the satellite assets and technology to monitor one's communications. Any terrorist who wishes harm to this Country is well aware of our technological assets.
They didn't have to read the NY Times to figure this out.

 

[tradenut]

Quote from AltarEgo15:

I still don't buy into your argument.

It lacks credibility because once again, I would suggest that you would have to be incredibly naive to think that the USA does not have the satellite assets and technology to monitor your communications. Any terrorist who wishes harm to this Country is well aware of our technological assets. They didn't have to read the NY Times to figure this out.

It does and it was used by the Gov to spy on Europeen business and that info was given then to some US co. This was well publiszed so I am sure terrorist are well aware of this as you state.

 

[AltarEgo15]

Quote from hapaboy:

But of course that's not important to the Left. What's important is making Bush look as bad as possible, national security be damned.

I really don't look at this issue in "right or left" terms.
As Rep. John Murtha said last month, the gravemarkers in Arlington Cemetery do not state whether the soldier that died for our Country was a republican or a democrat. As a result, I tend to look at this more in terms of running a large Fortune 500 company.

In that regard, this Administration has made ALL sorts of mistakes concerning Operation Iraqi Freedom. From denouncing Army Chief of Staff General Eric Shinseki's original estimate of needed troop strength, to botched and cherry-picked intelligence, to lack of appropriate armored-up Humvee's, to outright denial of a very strong insurgency . . . I can go on and on and on.

If this was a Fortune 500 Company, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz would have been fired a long long time ago.
If that makes the Commander in Chief look bad then so be it. It's like being in the major leagues . . . if the player personnel are unable to successfully execute day in and day out in the field, the manager gets fired. No questions asked.

Last time I checked, Bush was Commander in Chief.

 

[AltarEgo15]

Quote from dddooo:

When you're not concerned with whether Bush's gigantic fuck up in Iraq damaged the war on terror, when you ignore border and port security and other serious issues but then get all worked up that the opposition to spying on americans is weakening our position in the war on terror - one has to wonder whether you have your priorities straight. (not you personally hapa as I was responding to someone else's post)

Bingo!

Our public transportation security, border security, port security, and strategic infrastructure security ( dams, waterways, utilities, power plants, bridges, etc. ) is a joke.

Just ask a CEO of a prime defense contractor.
Homeland Security has never been fully funded to defend this Country with any adequacy whatsoever. And when some funding has in fact occured at Homeland Security, it has been "sprinkled" around the country with pork-barrel politics in mind, and no specific strategy or platform. How else can you explain a police chief in East Bumfuck, Tennessee able to purchase an amphibious vehicle for his police department with Homeland Security funding when there is no body of water in sight?

Guess it will look good during those 4th of July parades down Main Street.

 

[AltarEgo15]

Quote from hapaboy:

Yes it does. So if you are not exchanging phone calls or e-mails with Al Qaeda, or your name doesn't pop up on one of their cell phones or computers, you have nothing to fear.

Ask yourself why any government agency at any level would wish to monitor you. We all are in far greater danger of being monitored in this way by a computer hacker than by any agency of government at any level.

Ask yourself if you know of anyone who has been the victim of illegal wire-tapping by any government agency.

Ask yourself why any administration would deliberately place itself in serious jeopardy by illegally wire-tapping anyone, much less people who are innocent of any wrongdoing.

First off, it's pretty difficult to know when you've been wire-tapped ( legally or illegally ) because the NSA does not tell you. That is the beauty of this agency. Thus, your argument does not hold any water.

As for all of us being in far greater danger of being monitored by a computer hacker than by any agency of government, at any level . . . I would beg to differ with you.

Big Brother is watching more than you can even begin to imagine.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051224/ap_on_go_pr_wh/domestic_spying

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from AltarEgo15:

First off, it's pretty difficult to know when you've been wire-tapped ( legally or illegally ) because the NSA does not tell you. That is the beauty of this agency. Thus, your argument does not hold any water.

If you can't tell if you've been tapped or not, then neither does the opposite argument.

As for all of us being in far greater danger of being monitored by a computer hacker than by any agency of government, at any level . . . I would beg to differ with you.

Big Brother is watching more than you can even begin to imagine.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051224/ap_on_go_pr_wh/domestic_spying

And that proves what?!?

I still say your average American has far more to fear from a hacker than from a government agency.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from AltarEgo15:

Last time I checked, Bush was Commander in Chief.

Has nothing to do with the Left's being more concerned with Bush's downfall than national security.

You honestly believe the Left is making such a big deal out of this for non-political reasons, that they view all of this with the same level of objectivity you claim to have?

ROFLMAO!