Bush pardons Libby, panders to the hard right...

Sparo:
>Here's a simple analogy. If you see a traffic accident, and
>you decide based on what you saw that no crime was
>committed, that doesn't mean that you can lie to the cops
>(or the jury) about what you saw. Whether or not there is
>an underlying crime, your lies are every bit as serious
>and subversive of justice.

Perfectly put.

JB
 
Quote from Sparohok:

Even if we take it as a given that:

1) the leak began and ended with Armitage (which does not appear to be the case)...
2) Fitzgerald could have known without further investigation that the leak began and ended with Armitage (which is implausible), and...
3) nobody else in the administration mentioned Plame to journalists (which is obviously false)...

...that still would not excuse Libby of lying to a grand jury. He was not coerced, he was not entrapped; he lied under oath.

The grand jury's job is to determine whether a case should go to trial. Sometimes they determine that there is sufficient evidence for trial; sometimes there isn't. Either way, however, witnesses to the grand jury are compelled to uphold their oath. Just because the grand jury fails to indict does not mean that anyone should get a free pass on perjury or obstruction.

Here's a simple analogy. If you see a traffic accident, and you decide based on what you saw that no crime was committed, that doesn't mean that you can lie to the cops (or the jury) about what you saw. Whether or not there is an underlying crime, your lies are every bit as serious and subversive of justice.

Martin
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But, should you be prosecuted, and if so what are the charges, and what are the elements of those charges.

then actually look at the charges fitzgerald made and see if he proved up his case.
 
Jem:
>...then actually look at the charges fitzgerald made
>and see if he proved up his case.

We have a jury who answered that question.

JB
 
Didn't some of the jurists that convicted Libby encourage the president to pardon Libby? Going by some accounts they felt hamstrung by the instructions they were given in delivering the verdict but were very sympathetic to Libby's side.

Personally I find some of the sentences for recent sensationalist cases brought forward extremely severe for what appear to be a momentary lapse of judgment. On the other hand some of the sentences one hears of for repeated violent crimes or glaringly obvious neglect seem so lenient.

Libby? He's a scapegoat in a political turf war. He should be pardoned. There are a whole wide range of things to blast Bush for but I wouldn't blast Bush for that.
 
Uhhh, was his video in violation of any law, was he tried and convicted in a court of law, then sentenced according to the guidelines put forth for sentencing?

What a dopey analogy, really ignorant...

Quote from TM_Direct:

....and aren't you the same person who gave Al Gore a total pass on his video about Iraq and Terrorism ties? You said it was ok because he's a career politician and everybody made that smae* claim.....yet now, when Bush does one commute ( not pardon)......you want absolutes again....that makes sense...Bush does what every president has done.

By the way...you spelled BRAINWASH wrong.....LOL:D you have to use your BRAIN sometimes before you insult people.
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*ROTFLMAO...
 
Was the sentencing in any way not according to the standard guidelines?

Shouldn't an attorney pay a higher price for perjury, as they know the law, and in Libby's case are supposed to be practicing the law, and are supposed to be a public servant?

How was lying serving the public?

Why is it that we treat our elected or their appointees like royalty, rather than apply justice as equally as if he had been a drug dealer?

You view of society based on and comparison to the meaning of fairness and law and order is wack...that you think a man in Libby's position should be granted immunity and full punishment for lying to protect the outing of a covert agent, and not forced to suffer the consequences shows how deeply this country is off course...

Really, what message does this send to the youth of America? It is okay to lie if you are president and not get punished (Clinton) and the same goes for Libby simply because he is Cheney's bitch?
Quote from Capablanca:

Didn't some of the jurists that convicted Libby encourage the president to pardon Libby? Going by some accounts they felt hamstrung by the instructions they were given in delivering the verdict but were very sympathetic to Libby's side.

Personally I find some of the sentences for recent sensationalist cases brought forward extremely severe for what appear to be a momentary lapse of judgment. On the other hand some of the sentences one hears of for repeated violent crimes or glaringly obvious neglect seem so lenient.

Libby? He's a scapegoat in a political turf war. He should be pardoned. There are a whole wide range of things to blast Bush for but I wouldn't blast Bush for that.
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Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Was the sentencing in any way not according to the standard guidelines?

Shouldn't an attorney pay a higher price for perjury, as they know the law, and in Libby's case are supposed to be practicing the law, and are supposed to be a public servant?

How was lying serving the public?

Why is it that we treat our elected or their appointees like royalty, rather than apply justice as equally as if he had been a drug dealer?

You view of society based on and comparison to the meaning of fairness and law and order is wack...that you think a man in Libby's position should be granted immunity and full punishment for lying to protect the outing of a covert agent, and not forced to suffer the consequences shows how deeply this country is off course...

Really, what message does this send to the youth of America? It is okay to lie if you are president and not get punished (Clinton) and the same goes for Libby simply because he is Cheney's bitch?
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Libby is a political errand boy and scapegoat. If there is someone to punish it is his political masters. Libby's transgressions are worse than Clinton's but no less understandable. Not surprisingly I thought the impeachment case against Clinton was trash. Libby's case is being turned into a public lynching which it probably should be but I think calling for an imposition of a two year jail term is akin to people in the Roman Coliseum calling for blood no matter the self-righteous Inspector Javert facade. Actually I think calling for the stiff penalty is very reasonable but I'd want Libby pardoned.

Simply put I have empathy for Libby. I could easily see myself having gotten into his kind of predicament without really meaning to. It was wrong but I think there is room to show a little compassion and I certainly hope someone would do so if I were in his position.

Take out the political overtones of the case and I think there wouldn't be this brouhaha.
 
Quote from Turok:

Jem:
>...then actually look at the charges fitzgerald made
>and see if he proved up his case.

We have a jury who answered that question.

JB
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and we have an appeals process to see if they were properly guided by the judge and to see if the judge made appropriate decisions about the law.
 
Tell that to people who can't afford to pay the fine and are sitting in jail for perjury...

You have empathy because you would lie if it suited you.

Beegeezus, the party of principles, the party of Lincoln, the party of law and order and justice is so full of shiiiiiiiite....

Quote from Capablanca:

Libby is a political errand boy and scapegoat. If there is someone to punish it is his political masters. Libby's transgressions are worse than Clinton's but no less understandable. Not surprisingly I thought the impeachment case against Clinton was trash. Libby's case is being turned into a public lynching which it probably should be but I think calling for an imposition of a two year jail term is akin to people in the Roman Coliseum calling for blood no matter the self-righteous Inspector Javert facade.

Simply put I have empathy for Libby. I could easily see myself having gotten into his kind of predicament without really meaning to. It was wrong but I think there is room to show a little compassion and I certainly hope someone would do so if I were in his position.

Take out the political overtones of the case and I think there wouldn't be this brouhaha.
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Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Tell that to people who can't afford to pay the fine and are sitting in jail for perjury...

You have empathy because you would lie if it suited you.
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Depends upon the circumstances of the case. I'm a generally forgiving person. I have empathy because given the circumstances it appears he was in I can understand how things may have snowballed. Funny how being a realist can lead one to show some compassion being an idealist doesn't allow for isn't it?
 
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