Bush Lied!!! The Gop Lied!!

Quote from maxpi:



I think our focus was on Commies a lot of that time, at least up to maybe 1980 to 85 or so when it started to be understood that the Soviet Union was going to go away of it's own accord. I met immigrants in the US in those years that told me that the Soviet and Eastern Block militaries were not a threat but I never believed them until things collapsed. Nowadays we can turn our attention to ..... more rewarding tasks like stopping some of those bastards that have screwed up our airlines, and our Olympics, and our energy supply and our embassies and our Twin Towers and our stock markets and economy and our peace and freedom.
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(BTW, great article by Meacher, MSFE - thanks for the link)

...Reagan's assault on the USSR was nothing more than a smoke screen for other intentions. US intelligence knew (from info that is no longer classified) that the USSR never had any intentions of attacking the US or its allies. Questionable motives for entering the Soviet war with Afghanistan comes to mind here, as do the men in Reagan's cabinet, including none other than that worthless pile of shit, Dick Cheney.

It blows my mind that the airline industry has escaped fallout and anger from what was clearly THEIR failure more than anyone else's...

And it blows my mind that most Americans don't seem to care about who is really at fault for this problem...the neo-cons...who was "in charge" when those planes hit?? We either have the most INEFFECTIVE or most CORRUPT administration since Nixon -- take your pick, although it's probably a bit of both.

As for the SUV thing, I don't see how anyone could argue that the amount of money being pumped into saudi arabia and other totally WACKED OUT countries is at all a good thing. And I don't understand why more people don't feel more contempt for the oil industry and their efforts to keep the world hooked on fossil fuels by deliberately subverting alternative fuels. For example, alternative technologies will often be bought out by big oil money in order to prevent any loss of addiction of the world to oil...

But seriously, with the amount of $$$ going into the middle east from the US (and yeah -- SUVs suck because they contribute to it more than anything else -- sorry if you don't see it as black and white as I do), a good chunk is going to go into the pockets of terrorist organizations.

Quote from TM_Direct:

...They crashed planes into the world trade center in the name of LAND ROVER!!!...
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TM old buddy, your points are well-taken, but I think the issue here is the fact that they are tired of being pushed around by US interests, and an American culture that they find to be disgusting. They see US politicians slicing up the globe according to the whims of US interests...and some of those interests are the fat, SUV driving Americans who do not seem to give a shit about anything other than their own personal comfort.

I wanna throw up every time I see one of those gay "These Colors Do Not Run" stickers on some piece of shit luxury SUV.

I think the SUV owners should be the ones to get drafted and go fight in Iraq, so they can go protect THEIR OWN GODDAMN INTERESTS. And they should get the $87bil dollar bill (actually, I'm sure it'll be at least twice that).
 
The terrorist were motivated by our support of Israel more then anything else....Who cares about SUV's???? what about sports cars? mini vans? NASCAR for Christ sake.......the blame game is ridiculous and as i asked before.......hindsight is 20/20....but are you for or against the new patriot acts????? and i will say it again: what if a cockpit is locked and they start killing all the passengers? the key is to prevent weapons from getting on...sure, they should lock the door, but that only helps if they have no weapons...otherwise I find it had to Believe that they 1) won;t force them to open and 2) can;t kick it down eventually....these were whacko fundamentalist who attacked in the name of allah....and their ultimate goal is the destruction of israel.....look at the middleast right now...they call a truce then blow themselves up again.....how would you stop that???

and for all the SUV/MINVAN/SPORTSCAR/TRACTOR trailer/RV? WAVERUNNER/BOAT/SNOWMOBILE haters of the world.......who is for the switch to nuke power???
 
Quote from bungrider:




I think the SUV owners should be the ones to get drafted and go fight in Iraq, so they can go protect THEIR OWN GODDAMN INTERESTS. And they should get the $87bil dollar bill (actually, I'm sure it'll be at least twice that).
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Right....and you trade on what system??? how many monitors? give me a break....why is it ok for you to consume but not for others?....amazing....and what car do you and waggie drive? hydro electric? everybody is a total hypocrite when it comes to energy....and BTW, i don;t drive an SUV....but i do own smoking minivan:D
 
Quote from waggie945:

http://www.posner.com/why_america_slept.htm
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....What an awesome critique!!!!....now , since you and mr.posner know so much about why it happened Im sure you will tell us the next area of security where there is going to be an attack???....I suppose if we stop driving SUV's and Boats and conserve tons of energy....the terrorist groups will forgive and forget and attack Canada next??? Im not saying there are not valid points in these arguments but I think there is too much of the blame game going around and armchair qb's are know it alls after the fact....To me its no different then all these analysts who come on the air and tell us with certainty why the market went down last year, but have no idea what it's going to do tomorrow or next week ect....

...and Im still waiting to hear whether you support the patriot act as a means to prevent further attacks....Posner makes the point about losing terror suspects in the us ect......so , Im anxious to know whether the Patriot act is a good thing or bad thing in his and your opinion???
 
My biggest problem is the fact that one has to walk a very fine line between disagreeing with his country and being labeled a supporter of terrorism.

I do not like the fact that we are holding so many people at Guantanamo Bay without charges places against them. We have danced around the Geneva Convention through the use of a new term -- "enemy Combatant." Now obviously a lot of these people being held are very dangerous and the information they have may help our national defense. However, what is most troubling is, were these Americans being held by another country, we would be going apeshit. I am sure that there are at least a few people who are completely innocent yet are being held indefinitely.

Regardless of the fact that we may be treating them better than other countries would, we should not follow international law when it is convenient for us.

Also, I do believe that a lot of Americans are becoming very complacent in their lives. Some Americans are just too caught up in their own affairs and worries to really give two shits about anything else. Yes, I am an American calling some other Americans arrogant. A lot of this has come from enjoying one of the most prosperous times in American history. My own generation has never really experienced "tough times." Even the labor market is a walk in the park compared to other American labor markets from the past.

All in all, my problem is that Ashcroft and others are becoming a little too right for my liking. If they want to catch criminals and make my country safer, that's great. However, a lot of what they are doing today is overkill and eroding pieces of our civil liberties one step at a time.

It is being done in such a way that nobody will really see it until one day Uncle Sam breaks open your door without a search warrant, holds you indefinitely without informing any of your relatives -- all because you're selling bongs and bowls over the internet.

I'd hate to see this country turn into a police state, but that is where it is headed. I can't even go to a public function without going through metal detectors, pat-downs and searches.

My god, this isn't the West Banks, Isreal or parts of Britain getting bombed on a weekly basis by the IRA. Why is it that when terrorism hits our own soil, the government goes apeshit and into overdrive mode? Perhaps because we're not used to it?

I'm just speaking from my own experiences. I'm not making shit up as I go along. I do travel and I am involved with a lot of things outside my own house and I'm seeing this type of thing on a daily basis.

You know I want to wave the American Flag and be proud for what that flag stands for and how we got here. I want to be proud for the ideals that our forefathers had when escaping the tyranny of old England. I want to be able to go to a rock concert and give them a ticket and walk in without everyone being assumed guilty and having to prove their innocence before walking into the show.

When am I going to get my old country back?
 
Aphie,

The US is pretty far from a police state.
This is not the first time I have heard that statement. One of my friends said it the other day as a reason she is living in Mexico.

We just have been asleep for a long time in the US.

People here are scared. It is not a nice feeling. We avoid air travel now because it is a big hassle getting searched. After a couple of times it got old. Bob has to be patted down because he has a defibrilltor. It is really embarassing for him. But I would not get on a plane if they did not check everyone.

It really scares me we have metal detectors in grade schools. We need to be afraid of little children?

And being in public places is scary....thank goodness they check on all of us to make sure no one has a gun or a knife. Being in crowds freaks me out. Another pleasure I avoid after 9-11

We have all kinds of surveillence to stop stealing. Or speeding. We have the most people in prison of any country. I think that is because we do not execute people as much for murder. Also we have a huge population. Getting crowded. No room to breathe.

It is not comforting to see one jerk after an other on the TV spouting out their political drivel. I think other countries must think we are idiots.

All politicians lie. Get over it.

We are still happy to live in the USA. It still is the best country in the world to live in. We have a lot of freedom that other people do not have. Even with all this checking and re-checking.
 
Quote from TM_Direct:




....What an awesome critique!!!!....now , since you and mr.posner know so much about why it happened Im sure you will tell us the next area of security where there is going to be an attack???
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Didn't you see The Sum of All Fears... the answer is port security. And the ABC "in-depth" report a couple of weeks ago was a good example of this in real life terms. If we can't stop uranium from being imported (or smuggled) via the port of LA, then how can we feel secure at all? We can't, and we don't focus on this nearly enough.

Just think if terrorists had some of the hundreds of missing nuclear weapons in the world tied up to the same remote triggering cell phone number and exploded 10 of them at the same time once they're on US soil. Then we might begin to focus more clearly on port security, if we were still around to do so.

Just secure the borders. There's a good starting point.
 
In the ensuing BUBBLE in the financial markets that made even bartenders and taxi-cab drivers "rocket-scientists" during the late 90's, much of the American populace was riding high in the incredible wealth and economic good times heading into Y2K.

This is a fact.
And in enjoying the "good times" we let our guard down.

We spent too much time enjoying ourselves and getting FAT & HAPPY at Starbuck's and Mickey-D's, often taking the easy way out. Our media spent so much freaking time investigating Monica Lewinsky and President William Jefferson Clinton that ( had you arrived from another planet ) you would think that there was nothing MORE important to our country than whether or not Clinton lied about his affair, and whether or not he should be impeached.

Had our Congress, our Media, and the people of this country spent just 1/5th of their time on our National Security ( especially after the initial WTC bombing in 1993, which I was there for ) than continuing with the Whitewater Investigation, we just might have been able to avoid 911.

But no.
The cheap-ass Airlines did not wish to spend the money for commercial airliners that came with cabin doors that were secure.
The FAA was asleep at the wheel.

Our borders and our airports have been like a piece of Swiss Cheese, and the dysfunctional innerworkings of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies that are afraid to share information, let alone upgrade their technology platforms got lost in the COMPLACENCY of our BUBBLE.

The bureaucratic "don't rock the boat" dysfunctional nature of the FBI may have allowed many of the terrorists that were involved in 911 to act out their plan. The fact that FBI agents in Minnesota were unable to secure a Federal warrant to obtain the laptop computer of Zacharias Moussaoui is in my mind, a PRIME EXAMPLE of the FBI dropping the ball.

And unfortunately for us, many Americans dropped the ball on dozens and dozens of occassions. COMPLACENCY is the root of all evil, especially in a free society where our borders are open to practically anyone.

How many "wake-up" calls do you need?
 
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