Bring them back!

Quote from ElCubano:


the question he asked was what is the difference between packing taliban in a container or what Hitler did ( gas chambers )?? the answer is one pulled the trigger and the other just looks the other way.......

No, the statement he made that started this side discussion was that, paraphrasing here, no one could deny that the key officials of the Bush Admnistration were worse than Hitler and his top leaders.


cmon, surely you know we are not there to save the iraqi people or the threat of WMD...

I have no idea what you seem to presume everyone who's in-the-know believes about the reasons we've fought in and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq.

And getting back to my question which was never answered ....are we a safer Country??? peace

Taking the longer view - which is the one that ought to matter, in my opinion - we have eliminated the bases of operation for two major security threats, and in the process created the possibility for a more stable and predictable situation in a region of the world that was going nowhere but to Hell and threatening to drag as many of us as it could along - so, in those respects, yes, the country is safer, and it's not even a close call.

After 9/11, how long did you think it was going to be until there was another such event, possibly even worse?
 
Quote from KymarFye:



No, the statement he made that started this side discussion was that, paraphrasing here, no one could deny that the key officials of the Bush Admnistration were worse than Hitler and his top leaders.




I have no idea what you seem to presume everyone who's in-the-know believes about the reasons we've fought in and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq.



Taking the longer view - which is the one that ought to matter, in my opinion - we have eliminated the bases of operation for two major security threats, and in the process created the possibility for a more stable and predictable situation in a region of the world that was going nowhere but to Hell and threatening to drag as many of us as it could along - so, in those respects, yes, the country is safer, and it's not even a close call.

After 9/11, how long did you think it was going to be until there was another such event, possibly even worse?


hey i tried to erase it but thank you anyways for answering....have a great weekend....Whats up with Kobe??? oh boy....
 
Quote from KymarFye:


After 9/11, how long did you think it was going to be until there was another such event, possibly even worse?


???? 9/11 ????? KeynarFye you tripped AGAIN!:mad: :mad:

That does it :eek: I'm revoking your permit. I want my money back:D :D

9/11 mastermind=present cabal in dictatorship :) :)

You poor soul you:cool: :cool:
 
WELCOME BACK TO THE REAL WORLD

By Nelson Ascher

I can fairly well understand the American and British publics’ frustration with what’s going on right now in Iraq: “Isn’t the war over? So, how comes our boys keep dying almost on a daily basis?”

To begin with, the war is far from over, both the small one in Iraq, where no surrender has been signed and so on, and the larger one, against Islamic radicalism or political Islam or whatever one calls it. The situation American and British troops find themselves in is, obviously, very much like what has been happening with the Israelis. They too have been continuously winning wars, but there’s no real peace, or should I say that, in the present circumstances, there simply cannot be anything like a complete and absolute peace in the region.

Why? Because there has never been. Those are violent, unstable and cruel tribal societies that have been in a perpetual state of war against each other and against themselves. When a so called country there wasn’t waging war against a neighbour or wasn’t in a state of open civil war, one tribe or ethnic, religious or political group has been killing the members of a rival one or even of their own. Usually there has also been a perpetual conflict between the people and their governments or ruling elites. Life is not worth much in those societies and, if one doesn’t value his/her own, what to say about somebody else’s?

Whoever is amazed with the level of daily violence in the region would profit by reading some pretty recent history. Those days, between the 20s and 40s when the British either governed or at least policed the region (Palestine, Transjordan, Egypt, Iraq), were also a time when their troops were being perpetually attacked in a low intensity conflagration and were losing men constantly. When that “normal” violence reached a certain level, then his majesty’s army would conduct a really tough military campaign that, as against Hajj Amin Al-Husseini’s men in mandatory Palestine in the 30s, could well last years.

There’s no reason to expect something different in Iraq today, though, as the British used to know and the Israelis keep proving, some strong retaliatory measures may be quite helpful. If the Brits rather more than the Americans insist in transplanting to the Middle East the aversion they’ve been showing at home to the strong punishment of criminals and murderers, then their work will be much tougher and, obviously, they’ll be taken much less seriously by the local population. I’d even say that for the Allies not to execute someone who has murdered their men could be seen not only as a sign of weakness but even as a deep disrespect for the local culture, that values harsh sentences and the death penalty.

On the other hand, both the Brits and the Americans have the same option now as the Israelis have: they can give up and go home. The Israeli Jews could, for instance, go back to Europe and to the Arab countries and be murdered piecemeal there, while the Anglo-Americans can forget about the Middle East and, because the Middle East won’t forget about them, just wait calmly for the next large-scale terrorist outrage in NY or London.

http://www.europundits.blogspot.com/2003_06_01_europundits_archive.html#105669056374919438
 
Quote from KymarFye:

while the Anglo-Americans can forget about the Middle East and, because the Middle East won’t forget about them, just wait calmly for the next large-scale terrorist outrage in NY or London.

right. cruise missles and soldiers walking up and down their streets are going to stop the next 19 fanatics from getting on airplanes with boxcutters.
 
Quote from Madison:



right. cruise missles and soldiers walking up and down their streets are going to stop the next 19 fanatics from getting on airplanes with boxcutters.

I'd say it's worked so far, but that would be overselling the policy at what may be an early stage in its unfolding.

There are clear costs - terrible human costs and financial ones as well - but the strategic justifications vis-a-vis the war on terror include, though are not limited to, the following:

1) Denying AQ a major base of operations in Afghanistan while arresting, killing, or pursuing large numbers of its members, including leadership cadres, radically reduces its capacity to plan and finance operations, to train new recruits, and to pose as the glorious leaders of Islamism on the march.

2) Putting pressure on recalcitrant, terrorist-supporting governments such as Syria's or the mullahocracy in Iran - partly through the object lesson of the former Iraqi Ba'athist regime, partly by stationing large numbers of troops nearby - is necessary to put them out of the terrorism game, and to lay the groundwork for reform or eradication of the regimes that help support and produce Islamist terrorism.

3) Reducing financial and material support for AQ and for other terrorist organizations, including especially the ones fighting Israel, is essential if there's ever going to be any progress on the main open pretext for anti-American agitation in the Muslim world.

4) Being able to withdraw troops from Saudia Arabia and end the UN sanctions policy removes two underpinnings of anti-American Islamist propaganda.

5) Removing the opportunity for incidental Iraqi mischief and for much more serious threats down the line, and removing uncertainty over Iraqi ability and interest in arming, supporting, or utilizing terrorist groups simplifies the overall strategic situation, and helps ensure that it won't spin completely out of control.

6) In addition to the set of "sticks" implied in much of the above, we offer the carrot of fuller cooperation with the West, use of oil and other resources for the benefit of the people rather than for autocratic regimes, and the possibility of economic and political progress. At the same time, we increase the impetus and also the room for governments throughout the region to reform.

Homeland security issues are a different subject. There's no policy that can guarantee absolute safety from every death-mad zealot in the world, but 9/11 was not the result of 19 death-mad zealots coming together at random.

Your idea of an effective policy would be... what? Passing resolutions at the UN?
 
COMMENTARY

June 28, 2003

Pacifying Iraq


Saddam Hussein's defence strategy all along was to fight a scorched-earth retreat, then mount terrorist strikes against occupation troops and domestic sympathizers once Iraq had inevitably fallen to the U.S. and her allies. The theory was that Americans can't handle casualties or bad news, and with the Western liberal media -- Saddam's most reliable and consistent allies -- dwelling on U.S. casualties from each terror hit, the Bush administration would be forced to pull up stakes. With them gone, the Saddamites would soon find their way back to power.

The first part of this plan did not go well for him. The Iraqi army collapsed, but owing to U.S. foresight, training, and technology, there was little scorched earth. Now the second part is going badly, too -- though it is far from over, and the Western liberal media are at least keeping their part of the "bargain", with endless, misleading, "chaos in Iraq" coverage.

The war entered its second phase with the fall of Baghdad, as I wrote in April. It was not yet over; only the exciting part was over. I said the second part would take much longer, and I predicted allied casualties would eventually be more than were lost in the main invasion. I believe that was also the Pentagon's expectation. Check against delivery: this is just what is happening, and contrary to reports, we are not surprised.

The invasion came in under budget in three ways, including literally, for it cost at least $8 billion (U.S.) less than the Pentagon had allocated (possibly a first in the history of our planet). There were fewer casualties, and the objectives were captured faster than even the most optimistic forecasts I had seen or heard about.

It was almost too fast: for part of the problem when Baghdad fell was the U.S. didn't yet have enough troops ready for occupation duty. The whole 4th Infantry Division was still en route from its pointless wait to be allowed to pass through Turkey. A fairly brilliant job was done of cobbling together U.S. Army patrols, in the first couple of weeks, from troops that seemed almost outnumbered by media hacks. These latter, having been wildly wrong in all their own predictions about how the war would go, were now desperately trying to score after-the-fact "gotchas".

As we now know, such screaming headlines as those which were accorded to the "Baghdad Museum looting", were based on lies. Yet we continue to be fed very dubious information by reporters working with, for example, translators previously employed by the Baathist regime. The "Iraq in chaos" slant is still being applied to isolated and sporadic resistance from surviving members of the Saddam Fedayeen (including the Syrian, Palestinian, and other foreign terrorists smuggled in to help). The slant is belied by less jaundiced reports from travellers through the country.

Most neighbourhoods in Baghdad are quiet, and business is booming by pre-war standards. Ditto, most towns across the country, especially those in the Shia south, where at least three in five Iraqis live. And by both American military and Iraqi sources, I am told that almost every major violent crime turns out to be, on further investigation, not a manifestation of "general disorder" but another hit from the Fedayeen.

Despite great efforts by both American and British military to be culturally sensitive, there are unavoidable problems in conducting the weapons searches which alone can reduce the Fedayeen's remaining armoury. Cultural clashes are inevitable, and spawn rumours, magnified in the summer heat.

The most common unlikely story is that the troops have violated sheltered Iraqi women. Its source is invariably the man of the house, who feels emasculated by the search of his inner sanctum. As more than one Western-educated Iraqi has explained to me, "it's a matter of honour with him to complain later", and to improve upon the facts. His cultural assumptions are beyond the ken of most Western reporters, diligently noting his charges. And the story is as often as not compounded by a more universal feature of human nature: the tendency of young women to flirt with big strong heavily-armed men in uniforms. If the man of the house sees an elder daughter doing this, he is driven very close to berserk; but the daughter only gets her share of his abuse later and off-camera.

Alas, the iron law of political correctness prevents even the reporters who understand such things from telling their Western readers about them: for remember, our culture is pretty weird, too.

Time and patience will be required. All the reliable indications I have are that the vast majority of Iraqis, including those still terrified of the Fedayeen in such old Saddamite haunts as Fallujah and Tikrit, remain glad of the presence of U.S. and British soldiers, while grumbling more than helping. An independent poll conducted earlier this month on Western sampling principles showed that 73 per cent of Iraqis thought the coalition were doing a very poor job, and 76 per cent wanted them to stay. Add in overwhelming distrust of each of the native Iraqi governing alternatives proposed to the poll-taken, and you have the larger picture -- of a world in which perfection is unobtainable, but one somehow muddles through.


David Warren

http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/Comment/Jun03/index149.shtml
 
Quote from KymarFye:



I'd say it's worked so far, but that would be overselling the policy at what may be an early stage in its unfolding.

There are clear costs - terrible human costs and financial ones as well - but the strategic justifications vis-a-vis the war on terror include, though are not limited to, the following:

1) Denying AQ a major base of operations in Afghanistan while arresting, killing, or pursuing large numbers of its members, including leadership cadres, radically reduces its capacity to plan and finance operations, to train new recruits, and to pose as the glorious leaders of Islamism on the march.

2) Putting pressure on recalcitrant, terrorist-supporting governments such as Syria's or the mullahocracy in Iran - partly through the object lesson of the former Iraqi Ba'athist regime, partly by stationing large numbers of troops nearby - is necessary to put them out of the terrorism game, and to lay the groundwork for reform or eradication of the regimes that help support and produce Islamist terrorism.

3) Reducing financial and material support for AQ and for other terrorist organizations, including especially the ones fighting Israel, is essential if there's ever going to be any progress on the main open pretext for anti-American agitation in the Muslim world.

4) Being able to withdraw troops from Saudia Arabia and end the UN sanctions policy removes two underpinnings of anti-American Islamist propaganda.

5) Removing the opportunity for incidental Iraqi mischief and for much more serious threats down the line, and removing uncertainty over Iraqi ability and interest in arming, supporting, or utilizing terrorist groups simplifies the overall strategic situation, and helps ensure that it won't spin completely out of control.

6) In addition to the set of "sticks" implied in much of the above, we offer the carrot of fuller cooperation with the West, use of oil and other resources for the benefit of the people rather than for autocratic regimes, and the possibility of economic and political progress. At the same time, we increase the impetus and also the room for governments throughout the region to reform.

Homeland security issues are a different subject. There's no policy that can guarantee absolute safety from every death-mad zealot in the world, but 9/11 was not the result of 19 death-mad zealots coming together at random.

Your idea of an effective policy would be... what? Passing resolutions at the UN?

Of course we all favor some methods of dealing with terrorism, but there is no evidence to this point that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is helping the cause of the war on terrorism.

I seem to recall even the French had a resistance movement during their occupation by Germany.....so I assume a resistance movement is alive and well in Iraq.

The dream of imposing democracy on the middle east, and that they are going to love it (and us) because we do, may turn out to be a tremendous error.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:


Of course we all favor some methods of dealing with terrorism, but there is no evidence to this point that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is helping the cause of the war on terrorism.


Your opinion. Other observers differ - and refer to diverse events in Israel, Syria, Iran, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, among other places.

Part of the problem with any such assessment is that we cannot know what we would be dealing with if the Administration had not pursued the course it took. Presumably, we'd still be running no-fly zone missions in the North and South, and watching the UN sanctions continue to fall apart except where they happened to harm the Iraqi people and inflame anti-West sentiment the most. US standing and credibility in the region would probably be rather weak - with little to back up our stated policy of zero-tolerance for terrorist-supporting regimes. We would probably be unable to pressure Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iran effectively, and Islamic fascism, rather than being in retreat, would be seen has having weathered the post-9/11 storm fairly well. It's very hard to say, of course - and the issue isn't just how much safer from terrorism we are today, but whether we've advanced the war in all its complexity in relation to the longer time. I gave one set of arguments for why I believe we have done so.

None of this really makes much sense though, because the moment the World Trade Center towers fell, Saddam was a goner - not because he had anything directly to do with the attacks, but because the threat, distraction, and challenge he presented were no longer tolerable for a country at war. It was clear to many of us on the very day. Whatever Gore says now about how he would have handled things as President, I tend to believe he and most Presidents we've had would have ended up sooner or later at the same conclusion.

I seem to recall even the French had a resistance movement during their occupation by Germany.....so I assume a resistance movement is alive and well in Iraq.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, or equate, with this observation, but, if we're lucky, the Iraqis will end up being as collaborationist as the French were.

The dream of imposing democracy on the middle east, and that they are going to love it (and us) because we do, may turn out to be a tremendous error.

Or it may turn out to be the best thing the US has attempted in our lifetimes. In any event, I don't believe there was any choice left but to make the effort. I suppose we could have acted like true imperial powers of the past - and have ignored or even attempted to maximize civilian casualties, rather than try to minimize them and build something in the aftermath. If we fail, and there's a "next time around," it may make this war look like touch football.
 
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